MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, Food Wednesday, they are a local and global culinary treat, kabobs. But first, you may have noticed the piece in this morning's Style Section reporting that actress Margo Kidder of "Superman" fame was arrested in Washington yesterday. If so, you've likely wondered, why? The answer, oil.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIA proposed pipeline would run from Alberta, Canada to Port Arthur, Texas and send about 15 million barrels of oil to the U.S. from Canada every month. Some see that pipeline as a welcome source of oil from a stable ally and a jobs creator. Others see it as an environmental disaster waiting to happen. We'll be hearing from both sides during the course of this broadcast. We start with Cindy Schild, Refining Issues manager with the American Petroleum Institute. She joins us by telephone. Cindy Schild, thank you for joining us.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIOh, by the way, you too can join this conversation. If you have questions or comments about this pipeline, you can call us at 800-433-8850, 800-433-8850. You can send e-mail to kojo@wamu.org or you can send us a tweet @kojoshow or go to our website, kojoshow.org, join the conversation there. There is already an existing Keystone pipeline system. It's a 1,300 mile line that transports crude oil from Alberta, Canada to Cushing, Oklahoma.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIIt has sprung some 11 leaks during its one year lifespan, as of early June, this year, raising concerns about the new proposed pipeline that would be 1,700 miles long. It would cross six states, including Montana, Nebraska and Oklahoma. Cindy Schild, exactly what would this pipeline accomplish? What would it do?

MS. CINDY SCHILDThe pipeline is intended to bring oil in from Canada to our largest refining center in the Gulf Coast. And this is important from a standpoint of our trading relationship with Canada as well as energy security. And, of course, a lot of what we've been stressing, the importance of jobs and hoping to improve our economic situation right now.

NNAMDIIf you'd like to join the conversation, you can call us at 800-433-8850. What do you think about this proposed pipeline? The Obama administration has to make a decision by November 1st. 800-433-8850 or you can go to our website, kojoshow.org, join the conversation there. Gas remains expensive here in the U.S. and jobs are hard to come by. What do you see as the benefits of this project from where you sit in terms of jobs and in terms of gas prices?

SCHILDFrom a standpoint of jobs, you know, we cannot stress enough, you had Obama out last week talking about being ready to sign off and look for every opportunity to create jobs in America and here you have the largest shovel ready project that he -- that will be on his desk, shortly. And Trans Canada, the company proposing this project, estimates 20,000 jobs can be created.

SCHILDSo we are certainly hoping for a favorable decision by the end of the year and hoping to see these jobs brought to Americans by 2012. They're ready to go. The contracts are in place. So as soon as they're signed off, we'll have that opportunity.

NNAMDIWell, for those who say, look, we already have existing pipelines running oil from Canada to the U.S., why do we need another?

SCHILDAs you look at the infrastructure, the pipeline infrastructure in this country, it needs to catch up with this changing supply trends. So Canada is already the number one source of imported oil into the United States. And we have the ability to increase what we are importing from Canada.

SCHILDSo it's about 20 percent of our supply source now. We can continue to increase that, but we need to have the infrastructure to be able to refine it where we have the capability to do that and that's in the Gulf. Right now, we do not have the access, the market access, to bring it in. And there are several studies that'll support what I am saying about this as well.

NNAMDIWell, what do you say to people who say that, look, the existing Keystone pipeline system has already sprung 11 leaks during its one year lifespan as of early June of this year. And so we are concerned about this even longer pipeline and its potential for springing leaks. The opponents say it's a 1,500 mile fuse to the biggest carbon bomb on the continent, a way to make our -- a way to make it easier and faster to trigger the final overheating of the planet. What do you say to those critics?

SCHILDYou know, we certainly are never looking for spills and do everything, take every precaution to ensure that doesn't happen. This project has been reviewed by the state department and dozens of agencies from a federal, local and state level and at the -- we are still anticipating the final environmental impact statement from the state department. But at their last review, they indicated that this project will go above and beyond conditions and be state of the art.

SCHILDSo -- and, you know, those spills were small in nature and when they occurred, there was a -- there was a quick response and the measures that are put in place are there to monitor and detect. And there will be hundreds of monitors installed all along this pipeline system. So that is the approach that will be taken, according to these reviews and the plans set forth.

NNAMDIThe transport workers union and the amalgamated transit unions say they are both concerned about possible ground water pollution and health problems that could result near the Texas refiners where this oil would go. What do you say in response to that?

SCHILDAs far as we've seen, the state hydrologist has said that this should not be -- have an impact, that this -- there are already 2,000 miles of pipelines under the aquifer at this point.

NNAMDIJoining us now by telephone is Bill McKibben, he's been an environmentalist for over two decades or so. He founded the group 350.org that is helping to lead protests of the proposed Keystone XL Pipeline project. Bill McKibben, thank you for joining us.

MR. BILL MCKIBBENHey, Kojo, what a pleasure.

NNAMDIWhat are the main environmental concerns you have about this project?

MCKIBBENWell, there -- they sort of fall in two categories. One, getting that oil out of the ground and getting it down to Texas in this pipeline is a dirty business. It's already wrecking the place where they're drilling, mostly native lands in Alberta. And it's clearly going to be, you know, sets up the possibility for a, kind of, terrestrial version of the BP spill. This time into, like, the Ogallala aquifer or prime farmland, whatever else.

MCKIBBENBut even if you could safely someone surgically extract all that oil and get it down to Texas and refine it, that's just guaranteed that it's going to spill into the atmosphere in the form of carbon. The foremost climate scientist in the world, NASA's Jim Hansen, said a couple of weeks ago that if we actually tap into a big way into these tar sands, which were the second largest pool of carbon on earth, then, as he put it, it's essentially game over for the climate.

MCKIBBENAnd I think it's probably a combination of all those things that's resulted in the biggest civil disobedience protests in recent decades in the environmental movement. There were another 56 people arrested this morning down at the White House and these will be going on for the next 10 days.

NNAMDIYou and over a 100 protesters have already been arrested for protesting in front of the White House so far. Why did you choose...

MCKIBBEN200 -- 280, actually, as of today.

NNAMDITo be more specific, why did you choose a route of civil disobedience to protest this proposal...

MCKIBBENWell...

NNAMDI...and who are the people participating?

MCKIBBENSure. It's -- let me answer the second question first because it's been striking me as so amazing. I spent the weekend, last weekend, in jail. I spent three days at, what they call, central cell blocks in D.C. which was precisely as much as fun as it sounds like. And one of the things that was quite amazing to me was I'm 50 and I was on the younger edge of the 40-some men in my cell block who came in as part of this protest.

MCKIBBENAt the moment, they're not putting people in jail. They're processing and fining them. But it's a very diverse crowd, but it's not, you know, just college students or even mainly college students, it's people of all kinds. And the reason we're at the White House is not to protest President Obama. A lot of people have been arrested wearing their Obama '08 pins. I was. It's to show him that there's support for doing the right thing because for once, for once, for once, he actually gets to make the call this time.

MCKIBBENCongress has nothing to do with this. The president can block this pipeline and they can't say boo about it. He has to sign a certificate and he said he'll make the decision sometime in the course of this fall. Of course, the pressure from the oil industry for him to do it is unbelievable. So we're trying to show that there's real support.

MCKIBBENAnd, you know, it's funny, when we were lying there on the floor in the jail on the weekend, a couple of people said, the last time I slept on the floor, was in some church basement while I was knocking on doors for Barack Obama. I really want to be reminded of why I was so enthusiastic about his elections. (unintelligible) ...

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, we're talking with Bill McKibben. He's been an environmentalist for some two decades or more. He founded the group 350.org that is helping lead -- and he's helping to lead protests of the proposed Keystone XL Pipeline project. He joins us by telephone as does Cindy Schild. Cindy Schild is a the Refining Issues manager with the American Petroleum Institute.

NNAMDICindy Schild, as Bill McKibben just said, the Obama administration is going to be the one making this decision. It has until November to make it about whether this project will go ahead or not. What does a successful resolution of this conflict look like for each of you? First of you, Cindy Schild.

SCHILDWe certainly hope that the president will approve this project. We believe that the environmental assessment has been thorough. We have -- we're going on nearly three years now and it's time to move the conversation toward whether or not this is in the national interest and, you know, there is not a November 1st deadline, but the state department has said they hope to get it out by the end of the year.

SCHILDAnd, you know, it is a situation where we have oil that will be a part of our energy future by all forecasts, as will all other forms of energy. And this oil will be produced so as far as management goes, if there is the environmental concerns, will it be produced and managed better in the U.S. or in other countries that are aggressively investing in oil sands and looking toward tapping into that resource space?

SCHILDSo we have to look at this holistically. We do need all forms of energy and when you look at the emission, 70 to 80 percent come from what is produced or combusted in the engine or tailpipe of your car. So at that point, it doesn't matter where you get your oil from. So the U.S. is going to take it from somewhere, it's going to come somewhere and we need to make all forms of investment.

NNAMDIBill McKibben, what would a successful resolution of this conflict look like for you?

MCKIBBENWell, delay and analysis turns out for the entire environmental movement. About 10 minutes ago, we released a letter, and I've been, as you say, in this movement for 20 years and this is the first time I've seen every single major environmental group from the fairly corporate environmental defense fund to the fairly radical Green Peace, issue a strong letter saying exactly the same thing. They said there's not, and I quote, "an inch of daylight between us and the protestors out in front of your house on this policy, Mr. President. We -- you need to veto this pipeline. We expect nothing less."

MCKIBBENThese were the people who, you know, played a big role in electing the president. Environmentalists and young people are a strong part of his coalition. And since for once he has a free shot -- I mean, look, the guy's a basketball player. This is a 20' open jump shot, top of the key. We'll find out whether he'll, you know, take it or whether he'll pass off. And we're hoping that he takes it. And I'm beginning to think that the -- the odds are always in favor of the oil companies 'cause they got all the money, but I think our odds are going up.

NNAMDIWell, he was playing golf up in Martha's Vineyard. Hopefully, you won't come up with a golf analogy, too. Here is Susan in Washington, D.C. Susan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SUSANHi, Kojo. Thank you. This is for Ms. Schild. If the report from the federal government on the impact is fairly negative about the impact on the environment, will you continue to lobby to get the pipeline built or will you say, nope, this is not good for the earth and we won't do it?

NNAMDICindy Schild.

SCHILDThe last -- we're still awaiting the final environmental impact statement again, but the last one certainly had an extensive evaluation from, you know, all forms of the environmental assessment aspect in the review. And it did receive a favorable grade from the EPA.

NNAMDISusan, thank you very much for your call. Allow me to go to Jean in Slayton Hills, Va. Jean, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JEANHi. I just wanted to make a comment. I'm one of the people that are participating in the action. My action's going to be coming up soon, like in another week. And I have never volunteered or put myself in a position where I am voluntarily going to be, you know, arrested in a civil disobedience action before in my life. I'm 60 years old. I'm a professional woman, but I so strongly feel that this is so bad for the environment.

JEANAnd I worked very hard for Obama in Virginia and it wasn't easy going to a lot of the places I went to in Virginia to canvas for him. But if he goes ahead with this action, it really makes it hard for me to believe that there's a difference, you know, in voting for candidates that say they're for alternative energy, but then can support this type of pipeline that's going through. So I just wanted to make that comment.

NNAMDIOkay, Jean, thank you for your call.

JEANAll right, bye-bye.

NNAMDII think we have Nathan in Vienna who has a slightly different point of view. Nathan, your turn.

NATHANHi. I just wanted to speak in support of Ms. Schield. And as an economist, I kinda feel there is a bias towards energy exploration firms and other some such companies as the solace multinational corporations whose only interest is the bottom line in profits. But I think that Ms. Schild has raised a couple of good points where of the EPA impact studies have been basically favorable. The people who are in position to make these decisions on whether or not they go ahead with this project have kind of come together and said, you know, this is a good thing. And whatever environmental impacts there are are probably going to be minimal, if at all they are there.

NATHANAnd I also think that the people who kind of speak in protest against these types of projects really haven't thought their position through about alternative energy and stuff like that. And as an economist, I can speak directly to this. Alternative energy is a great thing. I fully support it and I also believe in global warming. Go figure. I'm an economist and I believe in global warming. But the markets right now in America and elsewhere in the world just aren't geared in this current point in time towards alternative energy.

NNAMDILet me have Bill McKibben respond to that. Bill McKibben.

MCKIBBENThis is a great way to get them geared in that direction. Look, when we found the oil fields in Saudi Arabia, the only pool of carbon bigger than this 70 years ago, we didn't know a thing about global warming. So we went ahead and plumbed them and we've been mining them ever since and that's why the planet's already a degree warmer than it was 40 years ago.

MCKIBBENNow, we found the next biggest pool. If we go ahead and do exactly the same thing we did in Saudi Arabia the result will be exactly the same. We'll spend another generation hooked on oil. Instead we need to take the opportunity to make the job-creating transition that we need to make to the sun and the wind. The environmental impact statements haven't said a darn thing about the global warming impacts. The people who've been talking about that are people like the most important federal climate scientist Jim Hansen at NASA. And his line is -- should be pretty much the end of this debate, if we do this it's essentially game over (unintelligible) ...

NNAMDIAfraid we're just about out of time. Cindy Schild, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground on this. It's either to build or not to build. Am I correct?

SCHILDAs far as this project goes...

NNAMDIYes.

SCHILD...certainly. As far as the development in Canada, it's happening. So the question is are we going to continue our relationship with Canada and look out for our energy security or allow it to go elsewhere?

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's all the time we have. Cindy Schild's the Refining Issues Manager with the American Petroleum Institute. Thank you for joining us.

SCHILDThank you.

NNAMDIBill McKibben has been an environmentalist for over two decades. He founded the group 350.org and he's helping to lead the protest of that proposed pipeline project. Bill McKibben, thank you for joining us.

MCKIBBENHey, thank you as always. Take care.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, we look at the influence on the Washington food scene of kabobs. It's Food Wednesday. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.