MS. DIANE VOGELFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your community with the world. I'm Diane Vogel sitting in for Kojo. Coming up this hour, they traced their roots to the doorkeepers and messengers at the First Continental Congress in 1774. In the 1820s, they tended the fireplaces and delivered mint juleps to the Speaker of the House.

MS. DIANE VOGELToday, the teenage pages who serve in the U.S. House of Representatives don navy-blue blazers to deliver important documents, wake snoozing representatives for votes and rise the flag over the Capitol every day when the House is in session. But after nearly 200 years, the House page program is shutting down at the end of this month.

MS. DIANE VOGELHouse leaders agree that the nation can no longer afford the $5 million price tag that annually costs the page program, and they say technology has largely made pages obsolete, anyway. But alumni of the program and many political observers, inside and outside government, say this is shortsighted, that the page program gives an incredible opportunity to teenagers to be involved in government.

MS. DIANE VOGELWe'll hear from alumni this hour and from you about how to engage teenagers and others in the political process. Joining us today are Prof. Jonathan Turley. Jonathan Turley is the J.B. and Maurice Shapiro Professor of public interest law at George Washington University. And he's a practicing defense attorney. Hi, Jonathan.

PROF. JONATHAN TURLEYHi. How are you doing?

VOGELOne of the more important things in this conversation is that Jonathan was a House page in -- back in the '70s, right?

TURLEYThat's right. It's one of the most significant events in my life. It shaped much of how I viewed the world, not just the government. And you'll find that it left an impression on all the former pages I know of. It's a remarkably transformative thing for a teenager to do.

VOGELWell, I'll tell you reading the testimonials from the alumni over the last couple of -- about last 10 days has been terrific. And I'm sure we're going to hear from many of them today when they call 1-800-433-8850. 1-800-433-8850, or email us at kojo@wamu.org. They can also send tweets to @kojoshow, or join us on our Facebook page. Also with us today is Adam Hoffman.

VOGELAdam Hoffman is the director of the Institute for Public Affairs and Civic Engagement at Salisbury University, part of the University of Maryland's system. He's also an assistant professor of political science. Adam, thanks for being with us today.

PROF. ADAM HOFFMANThanks for having me on, Diane.

VOGELOh, my pleasure. Let me start, Jonathan, with you. You served -- you started to tell us you served in the 1970s. It was a transformative experience for you, you said. Give us a little bit of a background, just about how you became a House page.

TURLEYWell, when I first heard about pages, there really wasn't any readily available information. I ran across a reference to pages in the history books. And I was immediately taken by the idea and wrote, on my own, without talking to my parents, to my senators and my congressman, who was Sidney Yates. And I ultimately interviewed with Sen. Percy and with his office and then, ultimately, Congressman Yates.

TURLEYAnd I went with Congressman Yates. I was offered both positions. And I'm glad that I did. I became a House page, and, ultimately, I became a leadership page working as a floor page and as a cloakroom page. It was an exciting time. There was great debates happening, everything -- the question of reverse discrimination to the neutron bomb. It was an amazing time, 1978. And it was filled with bigger-than-life individuals in Congress.

TURLEYAnd it had a huge impact on a young page. Where a lot of kids my age tended to idolize athletes, I tended -- well, my heroes tended to be leaders, like Hubert Humphrey and Barbara Jordan. And when I was able to see them on the floor of the House, my respect for them only deepened.

VOGELNow...

TURLEYAnd so -- yeah.

VOGELNow, I'll get -- certainly, we'll get more into your experience momentarily, but I wanted to ask you about your fellow pages at the time. Who -- looking around the room, if you will, in your memory, who were the other 15- or 16-year-olds who were with you? Were you meeting people from all over the country? What was the group like?

TURLEYWell, that, indeed, was one of the most eye-opening experiences. You came and lived in Washington. The male pages had to find their own places to live. The female pages lived in the YWCA. And I lived with a Texas page and a couple of other pages. And you learned a lot about where they were coming from. And many of these pages, obviously, went on to become very significant figures in politics and business and other professions.

TURLEYBill Gates preceded me as a page by a couple of years. Many members of Congress began their public service as pages. But there's a long list of pages who have assumed very significant positions. And when I ran across them through the years, they all say the same thing, that they were really touched in a very significant way by that experience, and it gave them a sense of duty for public service.

VOGELWell, for the last 10 years or more, Adam, I know that public universities and others have been concerned and trying to measure the involvement of students in civic engagement. Give us an idea for what -- at the university level -- you guys have been doing what you're tracking and how the generations are changing. Was Jonathan's generation a more active, a less active generation?

HOFFMANIt seems like the millennial generation, according to most research, is actually more active in different sort of forms of politics than traditional voting. You know, everyone is concerned and well know sort of the decline in the lack of participation in voting when it comes to this younger generation.

HOFFMANBut research has shown that that these Millennials are really involved in other aspects of participatory politics, whether it be volunteering during high school or engaging in political internships or even doing programs like the congressional page program at Salisbury University, as well as hundreds of universities around the nation have as their core mission infusing civic engagement in the curriculum, exposing undergraduates during their four years at college with some of the skills that they need in order to participate better and more in our democracy.

VOGELNow, Jonathan, when you came to Washington at 15 or 16, did you think that your future was in politics?

TURLEYI certainly gave it a lot of thought, and I have been involved a great deal with Congress since then. I haven't run for office, out of choice. But what I found was that there was a great array or myriad of different ways to work in politics. And you can see that in the page ranks, you know? It was -- one of the more interesting things, for me, was I recently was lead counsel in the Senate trial of Judge Porteous.

TURLEYThis is an impeachment trial where the jurors are 100 senators. And not only did we have pages who were on the jury, my opposing counsel, Congressman Johnson, was a page around my time as well. And you sort of looked around the room, and you could see the imprint that this service had for people. And even those -- some went on to business. Some went on to become doctors or lawyers.

TURLEYThey all are standouts in terms of their commitment to their communities.

VOGELYou know, everyone seems to be in agreement for this. And yet my understanding is this is one of the few bipartisan agreements that Nancy Pelosi and John Boehner were able to come to. The announcement that they put out -- and I have it here somewhere. But I don't have the wording exactly.

VOGELBut it basically said that pages are no longer needed, that the idea of delivering documents is no longer necessary in an age of technology, you know, technological era, and that they're probably the cost at -- when it breaks down to about $80,000 a year is more expensive than most boarding schools.

VOGELAnd at a time of fiscal belt-tightening, we just can't afford it. Tell me, do -- how do you both react to this? And have you thought through what you would suggest as a solution?

HOFFMANDiane, it seems just incredibly shortsighted on, you know, the part of the House leadership to cut a program as valuable as this. I mean, clearly, you know, there is clearly a lot of government waste. And, you know, if they were able to conduct a program, they should be able to implement the program for less than $80,000 per student.

HOFFMANI mean, there's a variety of internship programs, for instance, the Washington Center, which is a -- you know, one of the premier internships centers in Washington, D.C., that also exposes students to tremendous amounts of internships, working with Congress and federal agencies and nonprofit groups.

HOFFMANI mean, clearly, they could do a better and more efficient job at running the congressional page program. You know, I feel like it's fairly shortsighted to get rid of the program at this point.

TURLEYWell, I also -- I should note that, you know, I write -- I'm a columnist for USA Today. And for years, I've written columns saying that the former pages, the alumni, were prepared to take over this program, that all of the problems that we've had in this program are due entirely to the members themselves, particularly pedophiles in the House of Representatives, people who abuse pages.

TURLEYAnd for years, I've written, and other people have suggested that we're preparing to take over the program. We offered years ago that we might even be able to pay for the program. Many of the former pages are eager to try to support this program financially. And the members have steadfastly, including then-Speaker Pelosi, refused to consider it. They insisted on the members keeping control.

TURLEYBut one of the problems we've found is that there's a lack of honesty here. First of all, the suggestion that the speaker and Ms. Pelosi cancel this program for $5 million a year is laughable. I mean, if you walked up to either of these individuals and said, can I have five minutes? I can save you $5 million. It would be considered a joke. That amount doesn't even register in discussions on the Hill.

TURLEYIt is clearly not that, particularly because the former pages offer to defray those costs. What I think is really going on here is that some members of Congress view the pages as a temptation and a liability for members of Congress, that every 10 or 20 years, we have some member who tries to molest or proposition a page.

TURLEYAnd I think people in the leadership view it as just a liability. And so this is sort of shooting the victim, saying, you know, we just can't trust our members around children. If they simply gave the program over to alumni, let us run it, we would be a deterrent because we would not hesitate to drop the hammer on any member that endangered the program or threatened a page.

VOGELYou're listening to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." Thank you, Jonathan Turley, professor of public interest law at George Washington University. We are going to take a short break. When we come back, we're going to hear from Congressman Dingell, another former page, as well as many in the audience who have opinions about what you can do to engage your teenagers in the social civic society.

VOGELWe want to hear what made you come to Washington, what got you excited about being involved in government. Well, give us a call at 1-800-433-8850, or send us an email at kojo@wamu.org. And we'll be back right after this break.

VOGELWelcome back. You're listening to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" on WAMU 88.5. I'm managing producer Diane Vogel, sitting in for Kojo. And we're talking today about civic engagement and -- in general, and specifically the House Page Program, which was recently canceled by the current leaders of the House, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi and Congressman John Boehner. Now joining us is Congressman John Dingell Jr.

VOGELCongressman Dingell is currently in his 29th or 30th term, representing Michigan voters in Michigan's 15th District. He's also considered the dean of the United States House of Representatives. Congressman Dingell, thank you for joining us.

REP. JOHN DINGELL JR.I'm delighted to be here. Good morning.

VOGELGood morning to you as well. I understand that this announcement about the end of the Page Program, the termination of the Page Program, caught you by surprise, that you were not one of the people consulted on it. Is that true? And how did you first come to find out about it?

DINGELLWell, first of all, I was surprised. Second of all, I don't know anybody who heard about this before the event transpired. And I don't think there was any proper degree of consultation with the members about this or, really, any genuine review or discussion of what was to be gained or lost by terminating the Page Program. And this is, in the great overall thrust of things, a rather small thing, and yet it is a rather big thing.

DINGELLBecause, in the case of pages, of -- there is a tremendous amount of good to be given to young people by letting them come down and understand how the Congress works. And the program has worked very well over the years. It's something over 200 years old. And although there have been times where there have been troubles with it, basically, this worked very well and has turned out some extraordinarily fine, young people who have gone on to become citizens doing important and good work inside the country.

VOGELI understand that you are one of those fine, young citizens who first worked as a page.

DINGELLWell, I'd like to be described as fine, young citizen. It was one of the great formative events in my life, and it gave me an appreciation of public life, public service, the Constitution, the Congress, what the House of Representatives does and what -- how this all fits together into citizenship or to citizens' responsibility.

VOGELI understand you were on the floor of the Congress at the time when FDR made his speech about going to war with Japan, correct?

DINGELLWell, I was actually up in the gallery. I was -- or rather, a senior page at the time. I was given responsibilities that went well beyond just sitting around the floor or running errands. So it was my responsibility to handle a news commentator by the name of Fulton Lewis Jr., who was one of the very right-wing communicators for Mutual Broadcasting.

DINGELLAnd I was supposed to see to it that he terminated his recording on one of those old steel wire recording machines when the president was finished with his speech. I thought that the matter was important enough that I let it proceed through the debate, so that the debate of that event is preserved and is a very interesting study for scholars about behavior of members of Congress at times like that.

VOGELAmazing story. And if you hadn't been there, that debate -- that tape recording may not still exist.

DINGELLThat's right. So I'm very proud of that, (unintelligible) everyone's agreed while I heard. And it's a very interesting study because members who had been very far to the right and somewhat supportive of Nazi Germany all of a sudden became true patriots. And there was one woman from Montana who had voted against World War I who wanted to vote against World War II. Well, she got vote against World War II, but they wouldn't let her speak.

DINGELLAnd they didn't let her speak until Hitler declared war on the United States several days later. And that matter was subject to a vote in the Congress, I think, on the Wednesday following the Monday on which the House declared -- the Senate declared that a state of war existed between Germany and the United States.

VOGELAmazing. Well, I'm wondering, these days, what kind of interaction do you have with the pages since we hear that there's no use for them anymore or there's technological accomplishments that have made their jobs obsolete? What kind of interaction do you, as...

DINGELLWell, that may or may not be so. We have not had that information shared with us, so I proceed here on the basis of my own knowledge.

VOGELSure.

DINGELLFirst of all, one, there is a place for the pages. They handle the telephones in the courtroom. That's very important work. Two, the speaker has a page who does certain special work for him. In fact, he has several who do special work for the speaker in terms of the responsibility of the speaker in his office and of his office.

DINGELLAnd then there are pages, one, who is called a documentarian, whose responsibility is to see to it that important documents move through the system and are available for the Congress to consider if and when the time comes under the direction of the speaker those jobs will have to be replaced. Now, do we need the same number of pages that we did before? I don't know. I suspect probably not.

DINGELLA statement is made that pages are being replaced by electronics. To a degree, that's true. But I would be willing to bet you a new hat that, when this is completed, if it is done, they will be hiring a fair number of people at the same or higher wages because, remember, we're hiring kids. They work for rather less than does somebody with a family. They will be hiring more people to do the things that the pages now do.

DINGELLThey'll call them something different, and they'll run home and tell everybody, oh, look at the money that we saved for the people by having done this abolition of the page system.

DINGELLAnd I think that while this is a relatively small matter -- it's going to save $5 million -- the benefit to this country of having the kids out there, learning the -- about their government and then going home and communicating to their parents, family, schoolmates, friends, fellow citizens and applying the learning that they achieved there are -- it is very important.

DINGELLNow, having said these things -- this is also a symptom of something I'd like to discuss with you further, and that's the fact that the Congress seems to not have the ability to address important questions, and so is dealing with relatively minor matters because they can't seem to focus on the big ones.

VOGELThat is quite a big and powerful observation and one we're probably going to have to save for another conversation 'cause I'm sure it could take over the conversation at hand. But, Congressman Dingell, I'm going to ask, if you'll indulge me for a moment, we do -- I know that you do have to leave shortly.

VOGELWe have a caller on the line who had a personal experience with you that he -- or with one of your family members he might want to share, if you'll listen in for a moment.

DINGELL(unintelligible).

VOGELI'm going to go to Matthew in Warrenton, Va. Matthew, you're on the air.

MATTHEWHi. Good afternoon. Yes. I'm not sure Congressman Dingell can hear me.

VOGELHe can.

MATTHEWBut I was a page in the summers of 1978 and '79. And if I am remembering correctly, Congressman Dingell's daughter was also a page one of those summers. And he very graciously hosted a little get-together one evening when we were there, very memorable. It was a very exciting time getting to meet personally individuals like Tip O'Neill, as well as Congressman Dingell.

MATTHEWIt was quite a formative experience for a teenager that was just a freshman or sophomore in high school. So -- and his comments about the cost of the Page Program, my first summer I was not paid. I thought it was a good enough opportunity that I was willing to do it for free. And he may know the relative through whom I had the opportunity.

MATTHEWThen-Parliamentarian of the House Bill Brown is a -- was a cousin of mine growing up in a tremendously influential family member on myself, as well as a number of others.

VOGELWell, thank you, Matthew. It seems that it definitely had its lasting effect. You're still here in the Washington area and still engaged in watching an active political player.

MATTHEWOh, absolutely.

DINGELL(unintelligible) This is John here...

VOGELSure.

DINGELLI remember the event, and I remember Bill Brown, who is our parliamentarian and a wonderful man.

VOGELWell, thank you very much, Matthew, for that call. And, Congressman Dingell, I want to know from you, what have you been hearing from your fellow congressmen, everybody else who got that dear colleague letter and was caught by surprise?

DINGELLWell, a number of us are putting together a letter to the speaker under the leadership of Congressman Boren from Oklahoma about this matter. But I'm also writing the speaker a letter and asking if he would, please, inform me of how much is going to be saved, how many jobs are going to be taken to replace the pages and a number of questions to justify what's going on. And let me just make this one comment.

DINGELLHere we are having had a huge fight to resolve the question of debt ceiling in the 2011 budget. And now we're going to go into 2012 budget, ratifying the work of the 20 -- of the super committee that we have set up. And, by the great horn spoon, we have not yet begun to focus on the really important things, so we're dealing with whether or not we're going to save $5 million on a page.

DINGELLI think that's pretty good idea. But it tends to show that there's a bunch of people in the Congress who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

VOGELWell, on that note, sir, I do know you have to go. That was so -- we appreciate your taking time out of your day today for -- to join us on "The Kojo Nnamdi Show." That was Congressman John Dingell, currently in his 29th year representing the Michigan voters and the dean of the United States House of Representatives. Thank you, sir.

DINGELLThank you very much.

VOGELYou're listening to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" on WAMU 88.5, at American University. I'm Diane Vogel, managing producer of the show, sitting in for Kojo. Joining our conversation today about civic engagement and the House Page Program are Prof. Jonathan Turley, he's a professor of public interest law at George Washington University, and Prof. Adam Hoffman, the director of the Institute of Public Affairs and Civic Engagement at Salisbury University.

VOGELSo, gentlemen, let me get your responses to what Congressman Dingell had to say, and then we'll go to the audience. Jonathan, you want to start?

TURLEYWell, you know, I think one of the most shocking aspects of this story is that the dean of the House, John Dingell, who is, without question, one of the great advocates of the page system for decades, was not even informed. And what I think is there's a growing suspicion that this was done precisely so that former pages could not be heard and that it would be presented as a fait accompli in terms of cancellation.

TURLEYWe faced this before during the Mark Foley scandal. And there was a suggestion from some aides to just simply get rid of the page system. And many of us went to the Hill, and we stomped on it and said, you must be kidding me, right? You're going to shoot the pages because a member can't be around children. And they backed off. But there's a great suspicion that, you know, this was just a delayed decision.

TURLEYAnd the way it was done is just remarkable because there was no discussion. We didn't have any hearing. We didn't even have a meeting to discuss the evolving function of pages, and that itself is a great deal about the alleged reasons for this move.

VOGELAnd, Adam, any observations from yourself on Congressman Dingle?

HOFFMANYeah, I mean, I think it's just interesting, and, you know, just Congressman Dingle's comments really, once again, sort of reinforces the value of this program, as Prof. Turley also indicated, the transformative nature of exposing students at a young age to the inner workings of Washington, of politics. You know, I see it myself with my own students who come to me as freshman not interested in politics, or even quite cynical about it.

HOFFMANThey engage in an internship with their state rep or with their congressional rep or even something perhaps, you know, with the gravitas of a congressional Page Program. And they are transformed into a citizen who is, you know, much more interested in politics, and, you know, if not going into politics as a career, certainly much more interested and able to impact the political system.

HOFFMANSo, again, you know, Congressman Dingle, I think, just sort of reinforced the importance of keeping a program like this alive.

VOGELHow do you enforce the importance of civic pride and political engagement in your teenagers? If you want to share the way you do this, call us at 1-800-433-8850. 1-800-433-8850 or email us kojo@wamu.org. I want to read an email from Rita.

VOGELShe says, "Discontinuing this Page Program makes sense. I was pleased to see that the program was discontinued because I believe that, if you were to investigate over a period of years, those who were able to take advantage of these programs, it would be those who consider themselves connected to power on the Hill. It's a problem we see with internship programs generally. We need to take a look at everything we can to try and balance the budget.

VOGEL"This is a program that was a luxury, and we can no longer afford it." What is a -- how do you react to that, Prof. Turley? And is that a fair analysis? We've heard that people are connected. We heard how Congressman Dingle got his job or how Matthew, the caller, got his.

TURLEYWell, first of all, I want to emphasize that the comment ignores the salient fact that, for years, page alumni have been offering to take over the program and fund the program, in whole or in part, so that the money is not the issue. And nobody seriously believes this is being cancelled for $5 million a year.

TURLEYNot only, as Congressman Dingle pointed out, there will be cost replacing them. But, more importantly, we offered to take those costs, most of them, off the shoulders of the government. In terms of being -- this being the sort of the domain of well-placed pages, I wasn't. I know a lot of other people who were not. I -- there were some -- there's no question about it -- who got their positions because they were the children of major donors.

TURLEYBut that, again, goes to the offer made by the pages in the past. We've said we wanted to take over this program to guarantee that the people, that the kids with the greatest merit get these positions. So all of that, to the extent it's a problem, could have been easily rectified. And the fact that there was even no discussion indicates that that's not the reason, and that's not going to -- ultimately, those problems could have easily been addressed.

VOGELYou're listening to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" on WAMU 88.5. I'm Diane Vogel, sitting in for Kojo. We're going to take a short break. And when we come back, we're going to continue this conversation about the House Page Program. And we're going to get to all of you on the phone, so, please, hang on. We'll be right back.

VOGELWelcome back. You're listening to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" on WAMU 88.5 in Washington. I'm Diane Vogel, managing producer of the show, sitting in for Kojo. We're talking today about civic engagement, how we instill it in kids and whether or not the ending of the House Page Program may have been a good idea, a good money saver, or perhaps a little short-sighted. We're going to go right to the phones.

VOGELI'm going to start with Ed in Takoma Park. Ed, you're on the air.

EDHi. Yeah, I think one of the reasons that the Page Program should keep on going is that in some small -- the page might be keeping some of the Congressman being better role models. And, of course, the other side of the coin is that it might be one of the reasons that some of the Congressman doesn't want somebody that's going to see them when they're making some things which might be unethical.

VOGELInteresting. Jonathan, you mentioned that this is also a good opportunity for role models and for the Congress -- you mentioned in your LA Times article that it was a good opportunity for Congress to remember that all of their decisions influence the next generation.

TURLEYThat's right. There have been pages in some form in this country since the 1700s with the first Continental Congress. And they have represented a powerful symbol of the rising generation being present as laws are debated and passed that affect them in the future. This country has very few truly ancient institutions. There are very few institutions in the United States that go back over 200 years. This is one of them.

TURLEYAnd it was eliminated with less fanfare than the elimination of an earmark. There was no discussion, no consultation with historians, no consultation about this ridiculous $5 million, which is -- which could easily be raised. And so I think that what's lost here is tremendous. And putting aside the money, the pages were not just there to serve Congress. They were to serve the future as the next generation. They're a very powerful symbol.

TURLEYAnd I remember, as a page, I was asked once to raise the flag on the top of the Capitol because the flags (unintelligible) flag page was absent. And I went up there. And I went up this rickety old wooden ladder and saw the names of decades of pages on this wall. And walked across this thin wood plank and only then did I sort of look up. And I saw all of Washington, the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial.

TURLEYAnd they were debating the neutron bomb beneath my feet. And I stood there in the quiet of that day, and it sort of hit me how powerful it is for a nation to be free and when -- and the obligation of citizens to do something. It was an amazing moment I often think about. And it's those moments for pages that truly motivate them for their entire lives and produce great value to this country.

VOGELThanks. The email that I have in my hand from Morgan reinforces that. It says, "I was a House page in '92, '93, and it was amazing and a transformative experience for me. But I chose not to enter politics as a career. While the politicians who were pages may have become well-known, the program creates better informed and active citizens for all walks of life."

VOGEL"From the stay-at-home parent who advocates for better education for their kids to the engineer who volunteers in the local voter registration drives, the real benefits of the Page Program are thousands of page alumni who are active participants in each of their communities across the country." I'm going to go now to another phone call, and that's Teri in D.C. Teri, you're on the air.

MS. TERI CROSS DAVISYes. How are you?

VOGELI'm fine. Tell us about your experience.

DAVISI was a congressional page in -- from January to June of 1991. And I came from Cleveland, Ohio. And I often hear people, as this conversation has gone, talk about all these pages are only, you know, privileged, rich, well- connected. I can vouch that I'm not that. And I came from, you know, definitely a middle-class background. And I worked hard to get into the program, had to have my grades altogether.

DAVISAnd this program just -- it really changed the trajectory of my life because, once I came here, it was my first time being away from home. And it was an eye-opening experience in that I got to meet students and pages from all across the nation. And I also got a firsthand view of our legislative process, how it works.

DAVISAnd it also made me -- and I can attest to Morgan's email, that it made me -- even though I didn't run for office -- very much aware of my civic duties and very much plugged in in terms of that. And they had also brought me back to Washington, D.C. Once I lived here for six months, I knew that this was the place that I wanted to be.

VOGELI think that that's probably a common experience. And I want to say thank you to the Page Program for bringing Teri Cross -- for bringing this woman, Teri, back to Washington, D.C., because I recognize your voice. And that's Teri Cross Davis. She's a former "Kojo Nnamdi Show" producer and now the poetry program coordinator at the Folger Shakespeare Library.

VOGELSo, clearly, you continue to fill an important role and obligation to the communities around you. Thank you so much, Teri, for calling in.

DAVISThank you.

VOGELAlso, we'll go back to the phones now, and I want to hear from Ken. Ken in Tysons Corner, you're on the air.

KENYes. Yeah, hi. I'm a D.C. resident, and I was page in'90, '91. I'm also from a middle-class background in Oklahoma. And what really has an impact on the pages and on the members is the dynamic that occurs on the floor of the House by the pages being there. An earlier caller referred to it that the members are reminded of the next generation in everything they do. I was there in the House as a page during the debate over the first Gulf War.

KENEvery -- all 435 members wanted to speak, and the debate went all night. And the aides who were coordinating the speakers couldn't find them all, so pages, including myself, had to go off into lounges and libraries around the Capitol, finding pages (sic) before it was -- when it was their turn to speak.

KENAnd every single one of those members was awakened, usually in the middle of the night, by a 17-year-old and escorted into the House to give their speech for or against the war. And it was an overwhelming experience for me in terms of realizing that what was much more important than whether people were for or against the war was the fact that we could have this debate at all in our country.

KENIt may be sort of a cliché thing for adults to take for granted, but, for a 17-year-old, it made a really profound impact on me.

VOGELThank you, Ken. Thinking of -- I think that was well said. And thinking of cliché experiences, Adam, you, as a professor at Salisbury University, you're dealing with large numbers of 17-, 18-, 19-year-olds. And we get told that this generation is, you know, always ready to do something online but maybe not, you know, ready to click a I support, you know, the war or I vote against the war online.

VOGELBut maybe they're not as willing to put themselves out there and be, you know, physically engaged in something. Is that true or not? And what do you see in the ways -- or the different ways in which this generation is engaging with the public process compared to their parents?

HOFFMANI mean, if you give them the opportunity to have more of a physical or action-oriented presence in the political process, they take it, and they jump at it. I mean, that's been my experience as a political science professor and director of PACE. We have a program called The Presidential Citizen's Scholar Program, where we take about 50 or 60 students from a variety of different majors, not just political science majors.

HOFFMANAnd, you know, we immerse these students a year in numerous opportunities, doing internships with their state rep or with their congressional rep. And, you know, we assess sort of their political engagement skills, their levels of political efficacy, whether or not their sort of general cynicism about politics has changed. They've indeed, after a year of being immersed in programs like this, it changes drastically, and even radically, in students.

HOFFMANYou know, like some of the callers that referred to, you know, working with elected officials, seeing the human side of elected officials, what they do, how the process works, is often a tremendously positive experience for young people.

HOFFMANAgain, this is anecdotally for some of the callers, through the dozens of portfolios that I read when students finish their internships and through some -- through a good deal of research that has been done in the civic engagement, literature showing that programs like the congressional page program or internships really have a tremendous impact on increasing the efficacy, knowledge and general citizenship skills of young people.

VOGELYou're listening to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" at WAMU 88.5. That was the voice of Adam Hoffman, director of the Institute for Public Affairs and Civic Engagement at Salisbury University, part of the University of Maryland system, and also a political science professor there. You're also listening to Jonathan -- also with us is Jonathan Turley, J.B. and Maurice C. Shapiro, professor of public interest law at George Washington University.

VOGELAnd you're -- we've also got audience members. Penny in Alexandria, I'm going to go to you next. Penny, you're on the air.

PENNYHello. I'm so pleased to have a chance to -- yeah, to this discussion. Now, I am -- I'm one of the oldest of the baby boomers. So I remember when I was in college, and we were -- everybody was going to the draft, all of the guys were. I think the way to get the attention of all the young people about the importance of government is, first, to get them -- having it close and personal. Our country needs help. We have a lot of unmet needs.

PENNYI think we should reinstate national compulsory service to our country between the ages of 18 and 25. Everybody shows up for four years. They could pick any time they want to do it, and we'll find some firm to do that. They don't have to go in the Marines. They can do literacy training. They can be first responders. They can be Red Cross volunteers or fight fires. They can pick.

PENNYBut it will give our young people a chance to give back to the country before they make -- start making demands. And after they grow up enough so that they will be actually useful in college or useful, you know, to the civic things, then they can choose what they want to do. And if they want to be interns, then we'll welcome them in.

PENNYBut first, we have to get our young people, you know, fully focused on their responsibilities to the country that they've grown up in before they start saying, I have a right to this, and I have a right to that.

VOGELThank you, Penny. It's an interesting suggestion, and we've certainly done shows on "The Kojo Nnamdi Show" in the past on national service. And I expect, with the anniversary of 9/11 coming up, you'll hear more about suggestions like this. Prof. Turley, what do you say to the idea of young people not being as engaged or having to figure out a way to get the next generation involved? I'm curious, from your post at law school, what you see.

TURLEYWell, you know, at the law school, I've actually implemented a program to bring in grade school students to learn about the Constitution and the law because I share the view that civics is no longer taught in our schools. And I think I -- I think many of us associate a lot of our social problems with the fact that we're no longer teaching virtues, particularly civic virtues, when our children are emerging as individuals and, ultimately, citizens.

TURLEYThat's what makes the page system so unique, that we have an internship program that allows college students, for example, to go to Congress, the Lyndon Baines Johnson Internship Program. But this was unique. This is, for high school students, the most important part of their emerging as individuals and citizens.

TURLEYAnd I think it is also important to note that they do have an impact on these members. It is their presence on the floor, reminds these members that they have an obligation to the next generation. And what I fear they're about to do is to detach themselves further from the people who are affected by their decisions. And they're also detaching themselves from history. But this isn't a program that's designed to serve the members.

TURLEYIt isn't a program that goes to the founding of our nation. It's a program that belongs to the citizens of the United States. They are the beneficiaries. And I think what we're going to have to see is whether they'll be heard on this subject and at least get Speaker Boehner and Minority Leader Pelosi to engage in a dialogue as to whether this program can be saved.

VOGELI know that there is a Facebook page dedicated to this. I know that you and some other alumni are planning to meet with people in the House. How likely is it that we'll see a reversal of this? And, I guess, I should mention to our audience that this is only the House that has eliminated the Page Program right now. The Senate still continues to have their high school Page Program, correct?

TURLEYRight. The fear is that if the House program, which is the larger program, goes, so will the Senate program. And, you know, part of the problem here is that the way this was done was clearly designed to keep page alumni from informing the public, as with your first caller, that it's not about $5 million, because they turned down offers to try to reduce that money even for the alumni to carry those costs.

TURLEYAnd so the effort was to try to make this a done deal. We're trying to get that cat to walk backwards. It's not easy. But it will take members of the public saying, you know what? You know, this is ridiculous. You need to at least consider alternatives before you shoot a program that goes to the very beginnings of our republic and is all about the next generation of citizens.

VOGELAnd in the last 30 seconds or so that we have, Adam, I'll ask you, are there one or two or three suggestions you can make to a parent trying to get their student involved in politics?

HOFFMANYeah, I mean, the very first thing I would say is -- echoing Prof. Turley's comments -- is write to your congressman, email them, tell them to reverse this decision to get rid of the congressional Page Program 'cause this is an important program. But beyond that, I mean, one of the most -- the easiest and most important things is talk to your child, not only about sort of the issues of growing up, but talk to your child about politics.

HOFFMANEngage them at an early age in the political process. Again, research has shown that, you know, young people who are engaged in family conversations about politics, again, are less cynical, are more apt to get involved, are more apt to, you know, to get involved in a program like the congressional page or internship program.

VOGELTerrific. Well...

HOFFMANSo that's one thing.

VOGELWell, thank you so much, all of you: Prof. Jonathan Turley from George Washington University School of Law, Prof. Adam Hoffman from Salisbury University, director of the Institute for Public Affairs and Civic Engagement. You heard earlier from Congressman John Dingell, the dean of the U.S. House of Representatives. I want to thank all of you for calling, and this is an important conversation about civic engagement.

VOGELWe hope you'll continue it at your dinner tables with your kids today. I'm Diane Vogel, sitting in for Kojo Nnamdi. Thank you.