MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Maryland is about as blue a state as you can find. Democrats control all the levels of power in state government, and they have a lock on almost all of the seats in its congressional delegation.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIIt's not the kind of place where you would expect a messy redistricting fight full of power plays and power grabs, but that's only if you assume that all of Maryland is the same shade of blue. The Old Line State just may have the most diverse Democratic Party in the entire country. And intra-party disputes are brewing about the role of race and drawing new voting boundaries, all while the Maryland GOP is muscling up to defend its turf against gerrymandering.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIJoining us to explore what's at stake for Maryland in this round of redistricting and what it says about the state's political identity is Aisha Braveboy. She's a member of the Maryland House of Delegates. She's a Democrat from Prince George's County, representing District 25. She's also the co-chair of the Legislative Black Caucus Redistricting Committee. Delegate Braveboy, thank you for joining us.

MS. AISHA BRAVEBOYThank you.

NNAMDIJoining us from the studios at The Baltimore Sun is Andrew Green, opinion page editor at The Baltimore Sun. Hi, Andy, how are you?

MR. ANDREW A. GREENHi, Kojo. Good to be with you again.

NNAMDIGlad to have you around. Alex Mooney is the chairman of the Maryland Republican Party. He joins us by telephone. Alex Mooney, thank you for joining us.

MR. ALEX MOONEYYou're welcome. Great to be on.

NNAMDIAlso joining us by telephone is Todd Eberly. He's a political science professor at St. Mary's College of Maryland. He also writes The Free Stater blog about Maryland politics. Todd Eberly, thank you for joining us.

PROF. TODD EBERLYWell, thank you for having me on. It's my pleasure.

NNAMDIAnd for those of you who'd like to join the conversation, the number is 800-433-8850. How would you describe Maryland's political identity? Do you see different shades of blue within its Democratic enclaves? 800-433-8850. You can send email to kojo@wamu.org, send us a tweet, @kojoshow, or simply go to our website, kojoshow.org. Ask a question or make a comment there. Andy Green, I'd like to start with you.

NNAMDIWe're coming out of a knockdown drag-out fight over redistricting in Virginia, a veritable purple state where swing districts still exist and only a few votes separate the parties in power in the chambers of the legislature. But even though Maryland is reliably blue through and through, there's quite a lot at stake in its ongoing fight over drawing new voting boundaries. What, in your view, is at stake in this go-around in Maryland?

GREENWell, the big debate right now is about whether and how the Democrats in charge might try to carve out a seventh Democratic district in the state. Right now, we have a 6-2 split in our House delegation. For a brief time for two years, it was actually 7-1 Democrats when Frank Kratovil, the former congressman, picked up a seat that's based on the eastern shore and then had it taken away from him by newly elected Representative Andy Harris in this most recent election.

GREENSo there's some debate among the power Democrats in the state about whether to try to, I guess, for lack of a better word, gerrymander that district to make it more Democratic or to try to make it a play at the western Maryland district, now represented by Roscoe Bartlett, to see if perhaps increasing numbers of Democratic voters kind of up in the Frederick area might be able to be brought into that district.

GREENThat district could even stretch down, potentially, into some reaches of Montgomery County -- is the idea. So, right now, it looks like the battle lines are drawn between Steny Hoyer, who's an advocate of the first district strategy, and Mike Miller, the Senate president, who wants to make a play at that western Maryland district. I mean, that's kind of the big debate going on right now.

GREENBut this gets all -- all gets very complicated, you know, as you mentioned before. And as I'm sure Delegate Braveboy will fill us in on, there's a lot of interest in the minority community in the state about trying to carve out, possibly, a seat that could be hospitable to a third minority candidate, getting into the House from Maryland.

GREENAnd then all of the other incumbents are, of course, eager to try to protect their own turf and make their seats as safe as they can possibly be. So there's a lot of tension bound up in this. And it's kind of every man for himself.

NNAMDITodd Eberly, in the last round of redistricting in Maryland back, I guess, in 2001, the state had four Republican members of Congress and four Democrats. Now, that is split 6-2, and as Andy pointed out, at one point, 7-1. It was split in favor of Democrats. What happened during that last round of redistricting? And what effect has it had, in your view, on the state's political identity?

EBERLYWell, sure. It was clearly stated at the time of the last round of redistricting that the 4-4 split just was not representative of Maryland, and the Democratic Party wanted to boost their number. And one of the targets, of course, was Connie Morella, a very moderate to liberal Republican who was continually being re-elected down in Montgomery County to make her district less favorable.

EBERLYSo some of the Republicans from Northern Montgomery County were taken out of her district and put up into the 6th District. The 7th, 8th, 4th were redrawn to create much more friendly Democratic districts down there. You had two Republicans, Bob Ehrlich and Wayne Gilchrest, up in Maryland in the 1st and 2nd, essentially redistricted to the -- into the 1st -- I'm sorry -- into the same district, so that they would have to compete against each other and one of them would have to leave.

EBERLYAnd you had Baltimore City sort of broken up a little bit more, so that some of its reliably Democratic voters could be pushed out into the 2nd and 3rd District. And, I mean, the net effect, of course, was it made a 6-2 delegation, of course, until Frank Kratovil defeated Andy Harris. And then they had 7-1. And, I think, one of the challenges they face right now is -- I mean, gerrymandering might not be a wonderful term.

EBERLYBut I think it quite well describes what happened in Maryland and in many other states. They did such an effective job back in 2002, drawing these congressional district lines, that I think they're somewhat challenged to figure out how to improve upon that and make this a reliably 7-1 district, at least without allowing for a little bit more population change over time.

EBERLYBut because of how, you know, competitive control of the House of Representatives is right now, the National Democratic Party is putting pressure on states. If you have the ability to find us another seat when you're remapping, do it, and, of course, in states controlled by Republicans, they're getting equal pressure. Let's protect our majority in the House. Draw those district lines in whatever way you can to protect the party.

NNAMDIDelegate Braveboy, before we get into talking about drawing new voting lines, what do you think the status quo of the voting boundaries in Maryland says about the state's political identity?

BRAVEBOYWell, I think that if you look at the state of Maryland, in particular in the Washington region, you'll find that there has been a large growth in the minority population. And so what we've looked at as a caucus and, really, I think, as a legislature is the fact that there has to be some recognition for that increase. You know, currently, Maryland is one of the few states where the African-American population actually increased in very large numbers.

BRAVEBOYWe -- the increase was about 15.1 percent. And, currently, there's over 1.7 million people who have classified themselves as black or African-American that live in the state. Many of those moved to the Washington suburbs in southern Maryland. And so what we have seen is an increase in the number of African-Americans, in particular, voting in congressional districts in the Washington region, particularly congressional districts 4, 5 and, to a large extent, 8 as well.

BRAVEBOYAnd so we believe that over time and, really, in the very immediate future, there's an opportunity to elect an African-American or have a very good chance of electing an African-American out of the 4th Congressional District. Obviously, we already have Donna Edwards -- but also out of the 5th Congressional District because in the Democratic primary there, currently, it is about 57.62 percent of those voting in the Democratic primary in the 5th Congressional District are African-Americans.

BRAVEBOYAnd so that's a really important number for us to be able to elect in the future an African-American in that district.

NNAMDIWho represents that district now?

BRAVEBOYCurrently, Steny Hoyer represents that district. And while Steny Hoyer has done a great job, he's, of course, you know, minority...

NNAMDIYeah, but, of course, what people will say is, look, you get rid of Steny Hoyer, you're getting rid of one of the leaders in the Democratic Congress and replacing that person with a freshman who's not going to have much influence.

BRAVEBOYWe're not actually saying that we're going to get rid of Steny Hoyer or anyone. The goal of redistricting is about -- and if you look at the Voting Rights Act and the cases that have dealt with the issue of minority voter participation, it's really about giving the minority voters an opportunity to elect representatives of their choice. You cannot deny the number of African-Americans and minorities who have moved to the Washington region.

BRAVEBOYAnd over 50 percent of the people who live in the 5th Congressional District categorize themselves as something other than white only. So we do have a growing minority presence there. All of these congressional members are wonderful people. They serve the public, but they're not going to serve forever. And redistricting is about the future. What are the future opportunities that we're guaranteeing to our state through this process?

BRAVEBOYAnd we believe that. And, as a caucus, we have a responsibility on ensuring that future opportunities are there for a diverse delegation to our state because our state actually is almost 50 percent minority if you look at our numbers. And that's very important.

NNAMDIAlex Mooney, same question to you. What do you think the status quo of the voting boundaries in Maryland says about the state's political identity?

MOONEYI mean, the state is about 40 percent -- I mean, Bob Ehrlich and Michael Steele got over 40 percent of the vote. Probably, it should be 5-3, five Democrats, three Republicans. I agree with a lot of what Delegate Braveboy is saying as far as minority representation. And as a Republican, I represent the minority party in Maryland. And it's just a matter -- it's just doing what's fair.

MOONEYI released a map, fairlinesmd.org, the Maryland Republican Party, that would draw lines that represent new communities of interest, county boards and minority interest. It actually creates a third majority-minority district, a third minority district which, I think, is similar to what some of the things Delegate Braveboy is saying. And so I agree with the concerns. It shouldn't be to protect.

MOONEYWhat they're doing is protecting incumbents, protecting whoever is in there now with the caveat if it's possible to take out one of the Republicans, we should do that. In this discussion, there's just no discussion about what makes sense for the people of Maryland. In my discussions, in my press comments, I point out what Delegate Braveboy just said.

MOONEYIt's about 50 percent, almost 50 percent minority in the state. Yet there's only two minority congressmen, 25 percent. And that doesn't add up. So, you know, it's a matter of basically white incumbent Democrats trying to protect themselves, while at the same time coming after one of the two Republicans if they can.

MOONEYI think if you drew lines fair, that district where Bob Ehrlich used to be a congressman and where Helen Bentley was a congressman for a long time before, basically, that's Harford County, Baltimore County and parts of Anne Arundel County. It's basically a conservative area. So the Democrats have already achieved -- as the professor said earlier, it used to be 4-4 in the state, with basically the exception that Connie Morella was a liberal Republican was able to win in a Democrat area.

MOONEYAnd that's up to the voters, but it used to be 4-4. And because of all of the national pressure, they targeted things, and Bob Ehrlich ran for governor and won. But then we lost his congressional seat, so we went to 6-2. You think that the Democrats would be happy with that. But, no, they're very greedy.

MOONEYThey might overreach, actually, 'cause if they go after one of these other districts, they might create a vulnerable person somewhere else. So we'll see what they do. But the discussion should be about what's fair, what's fair to minorities, what's fair to the people of Maryland, what's fair to everybody, what makes sense. And that's just lacking. It's just a partisan Democrat process.

NNAMDIWe're discussing redistricting in Maryland and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. How do you see Maryland's surging black and Hispanic populations shaping its politics? 800-433-8850. And in what pockets of Maryland do you think there's room to grow for the state's Republican Party? You can also send us email to kojo@wamu.org or go to our website, kojoshow.org.

NNAMDIHere is Meegan (sp?) in Silver Spring, Md. Meegan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MEEGANHi. Good morning -- or good afternoon, I guess. I find myself smiling to myself 'cause I agree with a lot of what the Republican gentleman just said, and I'm a die-hard social worker Democrat living in Montgomery County. But I do think it matter -- it doesn't matter who's saying it. It's always the opposite party. Let me -- I'm not making myself clear.

MEEGANMy question is, why is redistricting always the go-to issue and the primary reason being to protect the party? Whether it's the Democrats in charge, whether it's the Republicans in charge, it's the same thing. It makes a lot of sense to me that if Montgomery County, and as I know it is, is growing in minority population to have some redistricting to better reflect that. But to redistrict in order to get another seat in Congress just sounds dishonest.

BRAVEBOYWell, I'd like...

NNAMDIHere's Delegate Braveboy. Delegate Braveboy, allow me to reverse that question.

BRAVEBOYThank you.

NNAMDIWould you consider restricting -- redistricting if it will cause the Democrats to lose one of the seats that it currently holds in the Congress?

BRAVEBOYWell, let me just say this. I think we have to understand what redistricting is, and it really is the process of redrawing lines, really, to reflect -- oh, really to ensure...

NNAMDIThe census count.

BRAVEBOY...ensure equal population, essentially. And at the...

NNAMDII was just saying it's done on the basis of the census count.

BRAVEBOYIt is definitely done on the basis of the census count. But what it does is it protects that sort of one person, one vote rule that's come out of case law, obviously. You know, the 14th Amendment requires that each, you know, electoral district have a substantially equal population. So, I mean, really, we're looking at sort of constitutional requirements.

BRAVEBOYAnd then we're looking at voting act requirements that really prevents the dilution of minority voters. Okay, so those are the two basic things that we have to do, meet constitutional requirements and meet voting rights requirements -- Voting Rights Act requirements. So, to the extent that those can be accomplished with meeting some general policy goals that either parties or individuals have established, that's -- you know, that's something that, obviously, can be discussed.

BRAVEBOYBut as a caucus, as a black caucus, our interest is in preserving the...

NNAMDIRequirements of the Voting Rights Act.

BRAVEBOY...requirement of both the Constitution and the Voting Rights Act. Those are our primary goals. And so, as we look at redistricting and we look at maps that we're considering and in configurations, that's our number one goal.

NNAMDIThank very much for your call, Meegan. We're going to take a short break. Before I go into it, however, allow me to share this email from Tim in Rockville. "The national polarization of our politics witnessed the recent debt ceiling crisis is principally called by congressional gerrymandering. My state, Maryland, is the worst. I vote Democratic. I want Democrats to be elected, including black Democrats, but not this way.

NNAMDI"Another gerrymandered Maryland is the only issue I can think of that would get me to start voting Republican." 800-433-8850 is the number to call. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue this conversation. Of course, you can send us a tweet, if you'd prefer being briefer, @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation on redistricting in Maryland. We're talking with Aisha Braveboy. She is a member of the Maryland House of Delegates. She's a Democrat from Prince George's County and co-chair of the Legislative Black Caucus Redistricting Committee. Alex Mooney is the chairman of the Maryland Republican Party.

NNAMDIHe joins us by telephone, as does Todd Eberly, political science professor at St. Mary's College of Maryland. He also writes The Free Stater blog about Maryland politics. And Andy Green joins us from studios at The Baltimore Sun. He is the opinion page editor of The Baltimore Sun.

NNAMDIAndy, we just watched a process unfold in Virginia, where the governor put together a commission that put out non-binding recommendations that were later ignored by the General Assembly, which wrote its own plan, which was rejected by the governor. So they wrote another one. How does the process work in Maryland? And who bears which responsibilities in this game?

GREENRight now, we've got a commission operating, going around holding public hearings, which the public can comment, say, here, we want these factors considering redistricting and these not and so forth. They will come back and make a report to the governor. They provide him with the recommended plan. But, of course, he controls the majority of people in the commission anyway, so it's kind of a self-dealing thing.

GREENAnd then he proposes a set of maps that the General Assembly can accept or modify, or just leave alone. And if they leave them alone, they go into law. So in Maryland, the governor really holds the power.

NNAMDIWhat kind of approach do you expect Gov. O'Malley will take in the process?

GREENWell, that's going to be interesting to see. He is presumed to have some kind of national ambitions after he's done with being governor. So flipping another seat from Republican to Democrat could be to his advantage and help burnish his star a little bit on the national stage. So he's presumably interested in that.

GREENAnd, of course, there's an interesting complication in that two people who were potentially important to him in different ways have different ideas. You know, Steny Hoyer, wants to make one kind of play, and that's going after the first district. Senate president Mike Miller, who is, of course, very important to anything the governor intends to do for the rest of his time in Annapolis, has another idea. So there's that to consider.

GREENAnd, of course, you know, the issues that Delegate Braveboy has brought up are another thing he needs to pay attention to because, you know, certainly, minority voters are of crucial importance to Maryland Democrats. And if they're mobilized around this issue, he could have real problems.

NNAMDITodd, the map that the Republican Party drew and introduced already, you recently approved in The Washington Post. What was the thinking -- what was your thinking in approving that map?

EBERLYSure. And, I mean, as I've clarified several times since, I mean, I approved the map. And it doesn't go beyond approving the map of the party as opposed to anything else. You know, my goal is ultimately fair representation and good government. And when you look at the structure of American politics, it's our legislative bodies that are supposed to be most Democratic, that are supposed to most represent the interest of communities and of the people.

EBERLYAnd gerrymandering, whether it's done here in Maryland or in Texas or in a number of any other states, really subverts that concept of representation of the people and, instead, replaces it with representation of the interest of party. And in Maryland, you see that manifest in many unfortunate ways. Multiple counties are sliced and diced and spread across many different congressional districts.

EBERLYI mean, Baltimore County, Harford County and Anne Arundel County are treated horribly. Baltimore City and Baltimore City's voters are treated almost as is they're spoils of war for the Democratic Party. And they're used to dilute conservative voters in surrounding suburban districts. And, to me, this is just fundamentally wrong, and it undermines the concept of representation.

EBERLYNow, the Republican map that came forward really was a map that sort of held to the standards that we expect: compact districts, contiguous districts, districts that respect existing boundaries, counties that weren't spread across multiple districts. Baltimore City, which has been losing population, is to the point now where it could have its own dedicated member of Congress with a few surrounding suburbs in Baltimore County.

EBERLYAnd I think that it's long overdue, that Baltimore City has its own congressional member of Congress. And so when I looked at that Republican map, it didn't matter to me that it came from the Republican Party. What mattered was it really accomplished this goal of truly fair, compact and reasonable districts in the state of Maryland.

NNAMDIAlex Mooney, in what parts of the state do you think that your party is particularly poorly served by the current voting boundaries?

MOONEYIn what parts of the state? Well, I don't look at it as a party thing. As the last speaker just said, we want to do what's fair for the county lines and let the voters decide. Anne Arundel County, for example, right now, is cut up into four different congressional districts. And Anne Arundel County used to have its own congressman. And it would make sense to put Anne Arundel County back together.

MOONEYIt'd make sense to put Baltimore City back together into one area, which our map does. And so I just look at it -- what makes sense, geographical boundary lines. And, I guess, the Anne Arundel County, you know, could go -- it could go either way. Who knows if they'll vote for Republican or Democrat? It's probably more of a swing district that's created there. Baltimore City would be a Democrat district most likely.

MOONEYSo, you know, I just think we should draw the line that's fair. Again, my map does create -- and I shouldn't say my -- there are some Republicans that are not happy with my map. Calvert County Republicans are upset right now because we had to change around some of their districts from congressional district five up to -- onto different district for some of them.

MOONEYAnd Congressman Andy Harris has his own taken out of his current congressional district, according to our map. So we didn't do it for Republicans. We did it for -- we thought, you know, made sense, what was fair. It is worth noting that some states do do this fair, like, Iowa, and there's a few other states.

MOONEYThey have a pure, bipartisan redistricting commission composed of equal number of Republicans and Democrats and other experts that help, and it's purely done the right way. And that's what Maryland should do. And that's what we're promoting.

NNAMDIWell, Aisha Braveboy, back to the strategy that you mentioned earlier. It is my understanding that while your caucus has endorsed that strategy group in Prince George's County, which is backed by the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund, says that's not good enough. The Fannie Lou Hamer-PAC is threatening that if districts are not redrawn to mirror the voting power of Maryland's minorities, that group is going to take the state to court.

BRAVEBOYWell, and I appreciate your, I guess, reading what you've read in the newspaper...

NNAMDIIn The Washington Post.

BRAVEBOYIn The Washington Post. However, we have tried to confirm that these groups that are -- that they had mentioned are actually backing their maps. And we have been able -- unable to confirm that. So, perhaps, that's something that you and The Washington Post might want to do before reporting on it.

BRAVEBOYBut what I will say is that the caucus -- the caucus' strategy is a very aggressive strategy to ensure compact districts that represent minority populations that contain communities of interest and because -- because that is acceptable, you know, sort of strategies when doing redistricting. I agree with the gentleman who spoke about Baltimore City.

BRAVEBOYI mean, the Legislative Black Caucus has recognized that Baltimore City has lost more population, really, than any other part of the state. However, we also understand that they still are a large jurisdiction in the state of Maryland. They're at about 600 -- I want to say, 673- or -53,000 people. And so they don't have enough population to have one sort of congressional district that's just Baltimore City.

BRAVEBOYBut we do see an opportunity to put the vast majority of Baltimore City in one congressional district, and that is seven, and then have parts of Baltimore County where a lot of the population from the city has moved in that same congressional district, thereby, really creating a district that contains a lot more communities of interest, as opposed to the district as it is configured now, which has really stretched its way across the Howard County -- really, to the western part of Howard County.

BRAVEBOYAnd so that configuration really just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for either the residents of Howard County or the residents of Baltimore City. And since the -- that congressional district really has its base in Baltimore City, we want to keep it in that Baltimore City region so that the Baltimore City voters have someone that they can go to and call their own. That's really an important goal of the Legislative Black Caucus.

BRAVEBOYWe also, obviously, want to preserve and protect the 4th congressional district and make sure that that district is compact in form. Currently, that district stretches all the way up to the Frederick County line, which really brings in a lot of communities that have various little interests in sort of the more urban areas of Prince George's County and Southern Montgomery County.

BRAVEBOYSo we are going to be proposing making that district more compact. But if you look at the 5th congressional district -- and this is a number's game, so you really have to look at...

NNAMDIWe're back in Steny Hoyer's district?

BRAVEBOYWe're back in Steny Hoyer's district, but I call it the 5th congressional district because no one owns the district. These districts belong to the people of the state of Maryland. The 5th congressional district has seen a large increase in minority voters -- 57.62 percent of the people eligible to vote in the Democratic primary who have registered as Democrats are African-American.

BRAVEBOYIn that district now, African-Americans determine the outcome of the election. And if you don't believe that's true, look at the numbers, his numbers in particular. Steny Hoyer's numbers in Anne Arundel County, in St. Mary's County and even in his home county of Calvert County, those counties he lost in the general election.

BRAVEBOYHe won Prince George's County and Charles County, in large part, really, due to the African-American voters. What I'm saying to you now is that...

NNAMDIIs you would redraw that district?

BRAVEBOYNo. We wouldn't really change the integrity of the configuration of the district. That district has to lose about 56,000 people because it's currently overpopulated. What we don't want to happen is to have African-Americans taken out of that district.

NNAMDIGot it.

BRAVEBOYAnd let me just mention this because we talked about one of the strategies of maybe, you know, purportedly getting another -- a 7th Democratic district. And there had been some discussions about taking voters out of the 5th congressional district in Prince George's County and adding that to the 1st congressional district. The caucus came out and opposed that very early on.

BRAVEBOYWe said that we would oppose any plan to do that because what it would have the effect of doing is diluting the minority vote, which we believe is in direct violation of the Voting Rights Act. And we would definitely challenge that. So that's kind of where we are.

NNAMDIOn the technicality on the possible inaccuracy of The Washington Post on my quotation of it, are you saying that the Legislative Caucus Redistricting Committee has contacted both the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, and the Southern Coalition for Social Justice, and the Fannie Lou Hamer-PAC and found that none of them are in favor of any kind...

BRAVEBOYActually, the Fannie Lou Hamer-PAC has -- was the one -- was the institute that was quoted in the newspaper.

NNAMDICorrect.

BRAVEBOYWhat I'm suggesting is that the other two entities that are mentioned in that article have not -- we have not confirmed with them that that is the accurate...

NNAMDIHave you spoken with them?

BRAVEBOYThat is correct.

NNAMDIWhat did they say?

BRAVEBOYWell, I personally didn't. We had our consultants reach out to them. And they've indicated that they have provided training as they do with many groups all across the country, but that they have not -- that they are not backing any plan. Now...

NNAMDIOkay. Andy Green, I think I interrupted you when I was asking that question.

GREENNo, no, no, quite all right. I was going to say that the maps that the Republican Party drew up are really, surprisingly, not self-interested. If you look at, you know, for example, as Alex Mooney pointed out, it takes Andy Harris' house out of his own congressional district. This is not the kind of thing that you do if you're making a gerrymandered self-interested kind of map.

GREENOf course, it's easy for the Republican Party to say because they, unfortunately for them, don't have any power in this kind of situation. If things were reversed and Bob Ehrlich could become governor, we might have had a different conversation about what the Republican Party was trying to do.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Here is Nicky in Fort Washington, Md. Nicky, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

NICKYYes. I've got, actually, two questions. One, I really haven't heard a lot about the quality of the representation that we're getting. I'm hearing a lot about Republican drawing, Democrat drawing and a lot of "preserving the minority vote." I just also want to add as a -- I am a woman of color. I'm from the Caribbean. But the term minority, only someone with a minority mentality is going to accept that terminology.

NICKYIf I want my representative, who is, by the way, Steny Hoyer, I -- when I have an issue, I call his office. And I expect to be heard because I'm a voter, not because of the label minority, and I know that -- I understand the history and the legal reasons why people use that terminology, but...

NNAMDIWell, Alex Mooney just pointed out that they are the minority party in the state of Maryland.

NICKYWell, if you want effective representation, then people have to demand quality represented -- representation. And I think, particularly, living in Prince George's County, that's something that all people have yearned for, particularly black people in this county. Thank you.

NNAMDIThank you for your call, Nicky. I'll read this email that we got from Carrie Anne in Gaithersburg, "For a state as small as Maryland, as relative to others, we've got a lot of clout on Capitol Hill. At the very least, Marylanders should be happy about the fact that we send representatives to Washington who can actually throw their weight around there.

NNAMDI"I'd rather have that than a bunch of yo-yos who don't share committees, who don't have seniority and who don't get much done." Care to respond to that, Delegate Braveboy?

BRAVEBOYWell, I...

NNAMDINo, huh?

BRAVEBOYI would say that I agree. I think that, you know, we have a great delegation of members. But, again, even though they are elected now, they're elected because of the people. And these seats are owned by the people of the state of Maryland, not any individual who happens to be in office now. And to the extent that they're doing a good job for the people of the state of Maryland, they will continue to get elected.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. But when we come back, we'll continue this conversation. But we're interested in your opinions, your calls or your questions, 800-433-8850. Where do you see the effects of gerrymandering in Maryland? Do think it's a state where gerrymandering has shaped the overall political identity or not? 800-433-8850 or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Send us a tweet, @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation on redistricting in Maryland. We're talking with Todd Eberly. He's a political science professor at St. Mary's College of Maryland. He also writes The Free Stater blog about Maryland politics. Andy Green is the opinion page editor of The Baltimore Sun. Alex Mooney is chairman of the Maryland Republican Party. And Aisha Braveboy is a member of the Maryland House of Delegates.

NNAMDIBack to the telephones. Here is Sarah in Caroll County, Md. Sarah, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SARAHHi, Kojo. I Just wanted to make a statement about Democrats in Caroll County and those coming -- and those in Frederick. We come under the 6th District. I've lived in Caroll County for 20 years and don't feel I have representation. Roscoe Bartlett has been (word?) very tough, tremendous power. And the idea of redistricting is not just to create power for Democrats or Republicans, but as demographics change, for that to reflect that.

SARAHThere's more and more Democrats coming in to Caroll County, particularly South Caroll and up into Westminster around the university. There's more coming in to Frederick County. And we desperately need some redistricting so that we feel like we have representation. I am very active about emailing Rep. Bartlett or calling. Whatever I do, I always get a canned answer, a canned email.

SARAHI don't feel like I have representation. And yet I also take offense of your guest that says Republican Party and he is a minority. He's not a minority. He has tremendous power through Roscoe Bartlett. And we feel in Caroll County, the Democrats, that we don't have representation. So we would like...

NNAMDIWell, allow me to ask Alex Mooney. Alex Mooney, you listened to what Sarah said. It would make sense that Democrats would like to use this redistricting opportunity to pick up a seat. What are the dynamics you see at work here? How do you intend to defend the aforementioned Roscoe Bartlett? And, of course, Andy Harris and Andy Green talked about that earlier, the two Republicans that currently represent Maryland in the House of Representatives.

MOONEYI disagree with the lady caller intention is. But I understand what she is saying. She's saying that Caroll County has to come out of Congressional District 6 for Democrats to win it. And what the Democrat map that I saw proposed -- it was listed on the Fox News website. It's going to take something like 300- to 400,000 voters in Montgomery County, put it in with half of Frederick County in Congressional District 6 and remove Carroll County for the expressed purpose of a Democrat winning.

MOONEYBut my whole point is -- and this is why I disagree with the lady who called in, who obviously wants Democrats to represent her -- is not about -- it shouldn't be about whether a Democrat wins or a Republican wins. It should be about where the community of interests lie. Can we have a third minority district, which our map supports? In Carroll County, Frederick County, Allegany and Garrett, Western Maryland -- that's Western Maryland.

MOONEYThat's a community of interest that makes sense. It's always -- it's really always been that way. So to take Carroll County out and replace it with Montgomery County, just doesn't make sense geographically. It doesn't make sense for communities of interest. And so I really just -- so I'm just trying -- we at the party, we're trying to refrain the debate here as to, you know, stop talking about, how do Democrats win, but how do we just do what makes sense for the people.

NNAMDITodd Eberly, it's my understanding that a lot of the ideas in play would draw some pretty exotic-looking districts and that some, let's say, Maryland's voting boundaries are already on the weird side of things. What are the rules that dictate what you can and cannot do when you draw these lines outside of the constitutional and voting rights things that Delegate Braveboy mentioned earlier?

EBERLYSure. Well, I mean, you've got the one person, one vote, which basically says that they have to be roughly the same size. And that means, roughly, about 730,000 is what we're looking at here in Maryland, 720-, 730-. Beyond that, the sort of nebulous guidelines are they're supposed to be compact, and they're supposed to be contiguous, which means they're connected in some way. Now, compact has long since lost any meaning.

EBERLYContiguous has really been interpreted to mean they're just attached in some way. So the 1st Congressional District is attached to Annapolis by way of the Bay Bridge for example. You've got elements of the 2nd Congressional District that are connected to other parts, you know, parts of it in Harford County that are connected to parts in Baltimore County by stretches maybe as wide as two or three city blocks. They just need to be connected.

EBERLYMaryland's districts already are quite exotic. I think it's a good term. But, I think, getting back to this other issue that the previous caller just mentioned, feeling that she's not represented by Roscoe Barlett (sic) -- Bartlett, this is, in fact, exactly what gerrymandering does. By creating safe Democratic districts and safe Republican districts, you elect partisans that are more likely to represent the extremes of their party.

EBERLYAnd they are less responsive to non-members of the party in their district because they are safe. So the polarization that we've just witnessed in Washington, with regard to the debt ceiling or with regard to health reform or any host of issues, this really is a contributing factor to that. By creating a situation where our representatives don't have to be responsive to opposition voices, we create a polarized politics. And moderation is lost.

EBERLYIf we had competitive districts in Maryland, representatives will be forced to compete, not for the left or for the right, but for the true median voter to win. But that has been lost as the parties have thought simply to gain some sort of strategic advantage in the drawing of these district lines. And I think that we all suffer the result.

NNAMDIHere is Rick in Arlington, Va. Rick, your turn.

RICKYeah, hi. You know, all this talk about continuous districts, non-gerrymander districts, it all makes great sense. It's in the very best American tradition. It's what the Supreme Court should have demanded, but they haven't. And the same kind of conversation we're hearing here is going on to many other states with the parties' roles reversed because it's Republicans, who are gerrymandering and adding seats, who control many governorships and state legislators.

RICKAnd the problem is that Maryland is not doing what it is doing in a vacuum. What it is doing is, if it did things the right way, in fact, locally, nationally, things will get more skewed 'cause it would not counterbalance what is happening in other states. So we are in a real bind, where what is best for America is not happening in almost any state, except Iowa, because each state realizes that, unless we have a national policy, states doing the right thing can only disadvantage one party in an unfair way.

NNAMDIDelegate Braveboy, to what extent do you find that allegiance to, A, the Legislative Black Caucus Redistricting Committee, which has some allegiances to the African-American community and allegiances to the Democratic Party, play a role in your approach to redistricting?

BRAVEBOYSure. Again, as I mentioned earlier, as a caucus, our interests are very focused.

NNAMDIObey the law, the Voting Rights Act.

BRAVEBOYThe Voting Rights Act is the primary, you know, goal. Well, obviously, the Constitution reigns supreme above all of that, and then the Voting Rights Act. But then there are a line of cases -- Supreme Court cases and -- that are controlling in this area of how districts can be drawn.

NNAMDIBut you're a Democrat. To what extent does that factor in to your considerations when you're looking at redrawing maps?

BRAVEBOYWhat I'm saying is that the primary goal for a redistricting, as we see it, is to obey the Constitution and, obviously, the voting -- preserve the voting...

NNAMDIWhat our caller Rick said is not in your head at all, that there are Republican majority states in which the Republican majority is doing the same thing, that Rick says is happening in Maryland. Does that enter into your consciousness?

BRAVEBOYWell, all politics is local, okay? And I don't have the luxury of being able to represent the interests of both of the people of the state of Maryland, a caucus that represents now 1.7 million Marylanders, and then have a lot of concern about other partisan things happening across the country. Redistricting has to be about protecting the Constitution and protecting the Voting Rights Act and the integrity of that act.

BRAVEBOYAnd anything other than that really can't enter into the equation when you're looking at proposing maps that make sense for the people.

NNAMDIAndy Green, speaking of the Voting Rights Act, the black population is not the only one surging in Maryland. Hispanics now make up a substantial part of the electorate as well. How do you see this shift contributing to shaping Maryland politics in the future?

GREENYeah, that's definitely true. There's a large increase in Hispanic population in Montgomery and Prince George's County, and, to a lesser extent, we're seeing some in Baltimore City now, too. It's not, of course, on the scale, at this point, of Maryland's African-American population, which is, you know, the largest of anywhere outside of Georgia, Louisiana, places like that, as a percentage of the population, nor is it necessarily easy to find a way to kind of connect it together to form anything resembling its own district.

GREENBut considering the way the population trends are going, over time, it would not be at all surprising to see a Hispanic representative in Congress, you know, whether through the auspices of redistricting or just out of natural occurrence. You know, the way this process has played out so far is, you know, I think, as Prof. Eberly pointed out, the Democrats have treated minority voters as sort of like pixie dust that they can sprinkle in other districts.

GREENAnd until some force comes and makes them not do that anymore, whether it be the Voting Rights Act or a revolt by minority voters, I think they'll continue to do it. So, you know, I would not expect to see an effort at a Hispanic-focused direct anytime soon. But it certainly could happen eventually.

EBERLYWell -- and if I may, just very quickly, Kojo. I mean, I think Delegate Braveboy would be aware of this. Whether a Democratic team or a Republican team controls redistrict in a state, the population that almost always loses is the minority population.

EBERLYRepublicans will seek to put them into one district to, you know, maximize their impact on that one district and not influence the rest of the state, whereas Democrats will frequently seek to take minority voters and sprinkle them throughout the state to dilute Republican voters elsewhere. But either way, the net effect is it reduces true representation of minority voices in our legislative body.

BRAVEBOYAnd I think that has, obviously, historically happened. And that's why, you know, when, Kojo -- you asked the question -- I have to honestly say our caucus cannot afford to concern itself with this national partisan interest. We have to be focused on ensuring fair representation of a group of people who actually chose to live in the state of Maryland. We're talking about groups of minorities.

BRAVEBOYAnd just so that you know, the Hispanic population is now at 8.2 percent, that -- they rose. And then the Asian population is 5.5 percent in the state of Maryland. So that population rose as well. But, again, with close to 30 percent of the population, African-Americans, Hispanics and Asians now make up close to 45 percent of the population, with all minorities combined.

BRAVEBOYI mean, these are groups have -- that have chosen to live in the state of Maryland, and that cannot be ignored. And when we look at places in Maryland that they've chosen to live, in particular in the 5th Congressional District, in the 4th, in the 7th -- and there are obviously growing populations of African-Americans in Montgomery County and elsewhere in Maryland -- we have to give recognition and understanding to those groups.

BRAVEBOYAnd when people move into an area and they choose to live there and they have loyalty to the place where they live, they have to be given proper, fair representation or, really, opportunities for proper and fair representation. It doesn't guarantee that just because you have a group of minorities living in an area or African-Africans or Hispanics that they're going to elect someone of their color.

BRAVEBOYIt just means that their power, their voting strength, is recognized and appreciated. And given the opportunity to do it, that's what they will do.

NNAMDIRick, thank you very much for your call. We're just about out of time. Aisha Braveboy is a member of the Maryland House of Delegates. She's a Democrat from Prince George's County. She's also the co-chair of the Legislative Black Caucus Redistricting Committee. Delegate Braveboy, thank you for joining us.

BRAVEBOYThank you.

NNAMDITodd Eberly is a political science professor at St. Mary's College of Maryland. He also writes the Free Stater blog about Maryland politics. Todd Eberly, thank you for joining us.

EBERLYThank you.

NNAMDIAlex Mooney is the chairman of the Maryland Republican Party. Alex, thank you for joining us.

MOONEYYou're welcome.

NNAMDIAndy, we've only got about a minute left, Andy Green. But mayoral election coming up this fall in Baltimore as the delegates at all politics is local. Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, who became mayor when Sheila Dixon was forced to resign in the wake of a scandal, is running to defend her seat. How's the race shaping so far, in 30 seconds or less?

GREENThe incumbent mayor has huge advantages in terms of name recognition. Her father was a very powerful delegate. She has a lot of money. She's definitely the odds-on favorite, but she has never won a mayoral election before. So you never know. It's -- it'll be interesting to watch.

NNAMDIWe still got 20 seconds. Have we seen the last of...

GREENOh. Oh, good.

NNAMDIHave we seen the last of Sheila Dixon? Do you expect she'll be running for that seat...

GREENApparently not.

NNAMDI...again in 2015?

GREENYeah, she certainly has expressed an interest in it, and she's trying to wield some influence in this race. She certainly does not believe she's done, so I expect we'll see her back again in some capacity.

NNAMDIAndy Green is the opinion page editor at The Baltimore Sun. Andy, thank you for joining us.

GREENThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDIThank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.