MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5, at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, psychology and behavior economics Prof. Dan Ariely on why public school teachers may cheat. But first, just a month after the District of Columbia filed its first civil lawsuit against a sitting member of its own elected council, both sides have reached a settlement.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThe city accused Councilmember Harry Thomas Jr. of diverting money earmarked for youth sports and using it for his own personal and political benefit through his nonprofit group, Team Thomas. The suit arose after Team Thomas allegedly made payments at a Hooters restaurant, at golf courses around the country and for part of the cost of an Audi SUV that's titled in Thomas' name.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThomas agreed to pay the city $300,000 to settle the suit, but insists he did nothing wrong. In the meantime, his council colleagues are debating what role he should play on council committees while a few have called for his resignation. And D.C. is, once again, in the news for alleged government corruption. We'd like to hear how you feel about this. How do you feel about the city's settlement with Councilmember Harry Thomas Jr.?

MR. KOJO NNAMDIIs it a good decision for the city? 800-433-8850. The Washington Post editorial page criticized the settlement for not forcing Thomas to explain his actions. Do you think he still needs to tell District residents why and how he made the expenditures in question? And do you think he should resign or stay in office? 800-433-8850. You can go to our website, kojoshow.org. Offer your opinion or ask a question there.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISend us a tweet, @kojoshow, or email to kojo@wamu.org. Joining us in studio is WAMU 88.5 reporter Patrick Madden. Patrick, good to see you.

MR. PATRICK MADDENGood afternoon.

NNAMDID.C. Atty. Gen. Irvin Nathan filed a lawsuit against Councilmember Thomas back in June alleging that Mr. Thomas illegally diverted grants and charitable contributions from the city for his own personal or political benefit. What did that lawsuit actually say?

MADDENWell, the lawsuit alleged that Thomas essentially -- and you talked about this in your opening -- that he diverted $300,000 in city funds for his own political and personal uses. This was money that was earmarked to go to youth baseball programs. And it was passed through a company, ended up in Thomas' nonprofit called Team Thomas. And, as the suit lays out, it was used for everything, from golf trips to trips to Hooters to a new SUV.

MADDENAnd so, again, they reached a settlement. And there isn't this explanation of what happened here. So -- and that's what a lot of people are asking right now.

NNAMDIExactly what did happen? Mr. Thomas has agreed to pay the city $300,000 in six payments of $50,000 over the next 2 1/2 years, which raises another kind of question completely. Do we have any idea where he'll get the money to do this?

MADDENAnd that's also very interesting. I'm just thinking about the legal fees that he must have already incurred. You know, he -- the salary for a sitting councilmember is $130,000 a year. So to come up with $300,000 over two years is not going to be easy. There has been some reports about, you know, can he sort of start a legal defense fund? How can he -- can he raise money to sort of help pay this off?

MADDENBut again, that's what sort of caused this whole problem to begin with.

NNAMDIWould that be considered a charitable contribution?

MADDENRight.

NNAMDIBecause as part of the settlement, Harry Thomas Jr. has agreed not to direct, not to control, not to participate in soliciting charitable contributions anywhere on the District of Columbia. What would that mean on a day-to-day basis?

MADDENWell, essentially, it means he can -- that the Team Thomas is done. He cannot head any sort of charitable organization except, I believe, for his constituent fund. That was -- there was an exception in there for that. But again, Kojo, this is not a punishment, this lawsuit. This is a way for the city to recoup money that was diverted, according to the lawsuit. So the city -- this is a civil lawsuit, and they're trying to get their money.

MADDENBut this is not a punishment. There is no admission of guilt. He is not repaying interests or paying any sort of penalties on this $300,000, nor does he have to repay the $80,000 that was raised allegedly through private donations through Team Thomas.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call if you'd like to join the conversation. How do you think this Harry Thomas' lawsuit and the settlement reflect on the District of Columbia and questions about alleged government corruption? 800-433-8850. We're talking with WAMU 88.5 reporter Patrick Madden.

NNAMDIThere's one part of this that I really don't understand, and I hope you may have a better explanation for it than I have not been able to find, and that is his for-profit company, HLT Team Thomas/Swingaway, is required to donate sporting goods and equipment that Mr. Thomas represents are valued at $50,000 to the Satchel Paige/Senators Little League. Where is that equipment?

MADDENI -- that's a great question. There is this warehouse of sort of umpire's masks and all of this other stuff sitting down -- I don't know. But, essentially, $50,000 worth of sporting good equipment is now going to this other local charitable organization that deals with baseball. And so I'm -- that is part of the agreement.

NNAMDIWhich suggests that it's just sitting some place being...

MADDENRight. There is some sort of...

NNAMDI...unused.

MADDEN...warehouse with bats and balls and other swing-sport equipment.

NNAMDIWho knows? The Washington Post editorial page yesterday lambasted both the agreement and Harry Thomas Jr., saying he should have to own up to his actions and that his continued service on the council is, quoting here, "an affront that should not be tolerated any longer." Are you hearing other people expressing the same sentiment? What are you hearing from other council members?

MADDENWell, it's interesting. I've been working the phones this morning, trying to reach out to council members and have had trouble reaching a number of them this morning.

NNAMDISuddenly, very busy.

MADDENRight. Suddenly, people are in doctors' offices. They're on vacation. But so far, we have two council members, Catania -- David Catania and Mary Cheh, who are publicly on the record to -- saying that Harry Thomas should step down, and another councilmember, Muriel Bowser, is almost there. She's essentially saying he should strongly consider what this all means for the council.

MADDENSo, I think, there is this growing chorus in the media, at least on the editorial page -- some of the editorial pages, for Thomas to step down. And you're seeing sort of that pressure being applied to council members. And we still haven't had Chairman Brown weigh in on this matter. I spoke with his chief of staff earlier. He just got in, so he -- the statement still hasn't come out of his office yet.

NNAMDIAnd Mayor Gray has made a statement that seems to be kind of vague on this issue. I am not exactly sure what it said.

MADDENRight. There was a Twitter -- what I read on Twitter was sort of congratulating the attorney general for the quick resolution to this matter and that this is going to benefit the youth, which I'm still confused.

NNAMDII got to say that definitely reminds me of the situation of Leslie Johnson and the Prince George's County Council. Leslie Johnson, having pled guilty in court, still sits on the county council and won't be stepping away until the end of this month. There was a certain reluctant on the part of her colleagues on the council to say anything about it, even after she pled guilty. Then a few of them started speaking out.

NNAMDIMr. Thomas clearly has not accepted guilt for any of this. But the mere fact that he's paying the $300,000 back suggests that he was using that money inappropriately. So you would think that some council members would have the gumption to speak up, either for or against, on this issue because he has already reached this agreement with the city.

NNAMDILet's hear what a few of our listeners have to state, starting with Rob in Baltimore, Md. Rob, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ROBHey, thanks, Kojo. I appreciate you taking my call. I don't care how anybody twist it. This is a crime. He should be arrested. He should not only pay back what he stole, he should pay back, you know, like your guest says, no interest or anything. I don't understand that. And, you know, it's immoral. He's in neighborhood crime. He's a thief. So for him to even want to stay, you know, in office, I just -- I don't understand it.

ROBI can't understand it. It's not -- it doesn't look good for D.C., I mean, at all. And, you know, for no other council members to speak up and, you know, blatantly ask him to resign, you know, loudly, you know, furiously, I don't understand that either. I just -- I don't know. To me, it was a crime. He's a thief, jail time.

ROBAnd, you know, I know he's a -- being a councilman, I know they get around a lot of stuff, and they have brick doors. But I (unintelligible) a crime, man. That's all I have to say.

NNAMDIThank you very much for you call, Rob. This isn't over necessarily, is it, Patrick Madden? The U.S. attorney, Ron Machen, is supposed to be looking at this also?

MADDENRight. This is now in the U.S. Attorney's Office along with several other investigations involving city lawmakers. But this is now in the U.S. Attorney's Office. And I'm reading reports this morning that Thomas has hired another lawyer. And I want to pronounce -- her name is Abbe Lowell, but I guess she specializes in sort of white collar crime issues.

MADDENAnd so suggests that it -- this may not be over, at least that the councilmember doesn't think it's over. At least he's preparing for anything down the road.

NNAMDISo far, he's been represented by Fred Cooke, who...

MADDENRight. Along with everyone...

NNAMDI...is pretty busy these days.

MADDENHe has a lot of business right now.

NNAMDIWorking on a lot of things. We've got a tweet from the Republican Party, the D.C. Republican Party, saying that Team Thomas was not a legitimate non-profit. It was fake, illegal, no paper work, et cetera. Also, Mayor Vince Gray and Kwame Brown's silence is deafening. Where is the leadership? But this brings us to this, Patrick. The Harry Thomas lawsuit was just one of a recent string of incidents involving alleged government corruption in D.C.

NNAMDIOthers including questionable hiring decisions and an allegation that the mayor's campaign paid another candidate to help defeat the incumbent during last year's elections. Since Thomas agreed to pay back the city, but maintained that he didn't do anything wrong, what does this agreement mean for the city's public image? What have you been seeing and hearing around town about this?

MADDENThis is clearly just one more ethical black eye for the city. I mean, this is just one more headline that people who may not be following the city as closely as we are but are just going to see what -- they're going to say, what is going on in the District? Do you have all these outside investigations going on? And to me, it's surprising. You have all these outside folks now sort of a lot hand wringing going on, suggestions about how we fix this mess.

MADDENCouncil members, I think there's multiple sort of ethics reform packages or bills, you know, being tossed around in the city. But it's just -- it's interesting that, again, not -- more council members haven't sort of spoken up about this issue.

NNAMDII get the impression, and I did also at the Prince George's County Council, is that the members feel that if they simply keep their heads down, that this will go away at some point. And as with that case, it clearly isn't going any place because there are more investigations and more results coming. Here is Joy in Annandale, Va. Joy, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOYOh, hi. I just -- going to say that I thought, whether or not you're a politician or a private citizen, if you do something such as taking a large amount of money from the organization that you're working for in the private sector, you really are a criminal and white-collar crime and you often have to go to prison. You lose your job besides paying back the amount of money you have, and most people who take money that isn't specifically earned by them would love to be able to just give the money back.

NNAMDIWell, it's my understanding, Patrick Madden, that the U.S. -- that the D.C. attorney general brought a civil case because he can't bring criminal charges.

MADDENRight. That's as far as his power goes, so...

NNAMDIHe can just get back the money that the city spent, and...

MADDENRight.

NNAMDI...it's up to the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, Ronald Machen, if there are any criminal charges to be brought.

MADDENRight. And one of the questions is, well, when was the last time the U.S. Attorney's Office has really gone after a law maker? I mean, we hear all the time about matters being referred to U.S. Attorney's Office. But when was the last time the U.S. Attorney's Office has stepped in and followed through with the case?

NNAMDI800-433-8850. Do you agree with those people calling for Thomas to step down from his council seat? Do you think he still has the trust of his constituents? I'd really like to hear from his -- some of these Ward 5 constituents. 800-433-8850. Do you still trust the council member? Do you still think he should be in that seat? 800-433-8850. Here is Perry in Tacoma in Washington. Perry, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PERRYThank you very much, Kojo. Kojo, I'm a long time -- well, long time -- well, I'm a staunch supporter of Harry Thomas, up until now. I'm in -- I'm embittered with the conduct of certain current council members in their disconcern (sic) with responsibility to taxpayers' money. Thomas and others, namely Kwame Brown and Yvette Alexander, should be arrested, much like the elected leaders in Bale, Calif., you may recall.

NNAMDIYeah.

PERRYI want them to step in. My organization (unintelligible) called not only for resignations but arrest, as late as July 18. These people will not act responsibly by admitting to the illegality of their conduct. But best believe law enforcement surely demands that of poor people, when they commit credit card fraud, drug distribution, (word?), shoplifting, et cetera.

PERRYSo (word?) citizens, trying to do the right thing, will never get their lives back. And these elected leaders...

NNAMDISo you don't think paying the city back its $300,000 is enough?

PERRYOh, surely not, because watch this, Kojo, and I'm glad you asked that question. When a person is convicted of a federal crime and they're made to pay restitution, they are not excused from carrying out the sentence. Say, Gov. Blagojevich of Illinois, he's got -- he's going to have to pay some restitution, but he has going to have to do his time as well.

NNAMDIOkay. Perry, thank you very much for you call. Patrick.

MADDENOh, I just wanted to quickly clarify that the lawyer that I mentioned before that Thomas has hired, it's actually -- I believe the name is pronounced Abbe Lowell. It's a man, so I just wanted to quickly apologize for that.

NNAMDIAll right. On to Tom in Washington, D.C. Tom, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TOMHi, yes. My name is Tom. I live up in Brookland, and I'm one of Mr. Thomas's constituents. And this sort of thing, it really bothers me because we're talking about, you know, $300,000 here that he misappropriated. And he's paying it back. I'm happy he's paying it back. The city coffers need him to pay it back. But the problem is he's getting to pay it back without interest or without penalty and without any mention of wrongdoing.

TOMAnd, I mean, council member Yvette Alexander said this weekend, why would you pay that money back if you didn't do something wrong? And that's the part that has me very confused. I don't understand his public statements, which don't seem to jive with the facts. It seems to me that Councilman Thomas is drastically separated from reality here in terms of what he did.

TOMWhat he did was wrong, and the fact that, you know, he's supposedly up there on behalf of Ward 5 and on behalf of our youth throughout the city. I mean, it's one of those places where I see a lot of people saying, oh, you can't comment on this unless you're from Ward 5. Well, I would say that that is absolutely not true, that if we have people in office doing this sort of thing, this is the exact kind of thing for which venture was invented, for which recall was invented.

TOMNow, unfortunately, because of the laws in the District, we can't recall Thomas until next year, and even if we were, it would be 7,000-odd signatures necessary in order to do it. And that's a really tough, tall order, so I think that we may just be stuck with it.

NNAMDIWell, Tom, I can tell you people are commenting on this from Takoma Park in Washington to Tacoma in the state of Washington is because anybody who's read about this has an opinion about it and is free to express that opinion. You can do it by calling here at 800-433-8850. And our guest is Patrick Madden, WAMU 88.5 reporter who cover city politics, 800-433-8850. We move on to Eve in Washington, D.C. Eve, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

EVEHello.

NNAMDIHi, Eve, it's your turn.

EVEI mean, I don't think that there's any such thing as a white-collar crime. It's crime. The citizens of this city should be overly exhausted, outraged, tired of this absurdity. This is vulgarity. These are criminals. You have a mayor who is a lawyer, who doesn't know what his people are doing.

NNAMDINote that our mayor is not an attorney, please.

EVEI know. Our mayor of the city, he went to law school, and he doesn't know what his people are doing to get him elected. I mean, it's an absurdity. They're getting paid so much money for part-time work. The city cannot find jobs and training for its people, and everything is going, you know, up the creek. This is an outrage. We should get them out of office. People have to stop throwing up their hands and saying, there's nothing we can do. Get them out of office. Thank you.

NNAMDIEve, thank you very much for your call. Patrick Madden, for the record, it is my understanding that Vincent Gray is not an attorney.

MADDENNo.

NNAMDIYes. He went to undergraduate school of George Washington University. And he has served as a head of a nonprofit and then public roles for most of his professional career. But a lawyer, he is not, maybe the only one in D.C. who's not a lawyer. Here's Liz in Brightwood in D.C. Liz, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LIZOh, I moved to the district a year ago. I'm a Minnesota liberal from Minneapolis -- St. Paul. And we chuckled when you all elected Marion Barry to the council after his criminal past as mayor. But you've all outdone yourselves.

LIZThis ridiculous misappropriation of funds for things as trivial as big SUVs and lunch at Hooters, aside from the corruption, makes folks running the district look like some small town mafia out in the middle of no place, rather than running the capital city of the Western world. I mean, aside from the fact that it sets an incredibly bad example for young people, that's how the District looks. To those who don't think it looks corrupt, it looks putzy. (sic) So...

NNAMDIAnd yet, Liz, you have chosen to make your residence here.

LIZI have. I have some children who have great optimism about the District, and I care more about being near them than about the buffoonery on the city council. So I'll be here voting.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for your call.

LIZThanks.

NNAMDILiz from Brightwood, D.C. We got an email from Mark in D.C., who says, "What's the question here? Throw this guy out. He gave money back that clearly wasn't his to use for the purposes he used it. He owes -- he used it -- he owes us interest and a penalty just like if I didn't pay my taxes. He's a thief. He should be allowed to stay out of jail long enough to pay the debt, then thrown in jail. We need to clean house."

NNAMDIWe got another email from Quinton, (sp?) who says, "If you were caught stealing on your job, you would be fired, not asked to resign. So why does Harry Thomas get a choice?" Patrick Madden, I guess we do have reiterate that this was a civil case in which this settlement was reached and not a criminal case.

MADDENAnd there really isn't an impeachment process sort of in the home charter. But it's interesting, Kojo. While all these distractions and (word?) are going on, what I hear constantly is this is really cloudy, what the council and what the mayor is trying do. And I'm trying to think back, what is the sort of singular legislative accomplishment of this council this past session?

MADDENAnd other than passing a budget, it seems like they've been dealing with a lot of these issues. You know, they've been talking ethics reform and these things. But it's really become a big distraction in the city in terms of what the city is trying to do.

NNAMDIAnd I think it was Councilmember Mary Cheh who said in calling on Councilmember Harry Thomas Jr. to resign that personally, this is somebody she likes. I have to say that if you've interacted with Harry Thomas, he's a very genial kind of guy. He's fairly easy to talk to. He's fairly accessible, usually on other issues besides this. But I guess that's not the point, is it?

MADDENRight.

NNAMDIHere is Pepper in Brookland, who -- which is a part Ward 5. Pepper, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PEPPERHi, Kojo. I absolutely love your show. I am a new resident to Brookland. I lived in Ward 4 for the past six years, and I just want to say Harry Thomas should be ashamed. Those council members, most of them are ethically compromised, and I think that's why they haven't come out stronger about him leaving office. But keep in mind, if he leaves office, how's he going to pay the fine? That's his only source of income.

PEPPERAnd the other things is, Gray, I don't really believe that he knew what was going on. I don't know what that says for him and his campaign, but I think he's ethically compromised. This will give him an opportunity to take a stand instead of just being gray -- that's all we gotten from him is gray -- and really take a stand against Harry Thomas and tell him to go. But I don't think Kwame Brown's going to do it.

PEPPERI hope Bowser will come out soon and say something. But, you know, he needs to take that SUV to CarMax, get some money and do whatever. But he needs to resign from the council.

NNAMDIGray in name and nature is what you're saying, huh, Pepper?

PEPPERExactly. It's really terrible. And I also just want to say...

NNAMDIToo many gray areas. This could go on forever. Go ahead, please.

PEPPERYeah, well, the other thing I was going to say is I don't believe, you know, these politicians reflect on the citizens of D.C. I know people get all hung up on that. But they reflect on themselves. They reflect on the council, but we don't have a run-off system in this city. If, you know, five people run against the incumbent, the incumbent is going to win.

PEPPERSo, you know, some of that stuff, you know, can't be overcome, but the council is responsible to itself and the mayor and the citizens. But, you know, Harry Thomas doesn't reflect me. Muriel Bowser doesn't reflect me. They're individuals, but they need to take responsibility for their actions.

NNAMDII have to say that as far as we know, Councilmember Muriel Bowser is not under investigation or suspicion of anything untoward as far we know.

PEPPERRight. And I know -- and she's -- I mean, she -- I was formerly in Ward 4. She is awesome, and I just hope she comes out against Thomas because I just think it looks ridiculous for them to be sitting there with him, you know, actually engaging with him because of what he's done. It's disgraceful, and he shamed his family. I feel so sorry for his poor mother that has to live to see this. It's ridiculous.

NNAMDIOne should remember that Harry Thomas Jr.'s. father, Harry Thomas, was the councilmember who represented Ward 5. He is no longer with us, but he is fondly remembered and as is his wife by a whole lot of people in and out of that ward. Thank you very much for your call, Pepper. Here is Josh in Washington, D.C. Josh, your turn.

JOSHHi. How are you doing today, Kojo?

NNAMDII'm well.

JOSHGood. Well, so I'm a teacher here in DC Public Schools, and I've had -- I teach at a high school here. And I recently been having students that have been following the story. And a lot of my students unfortunately come from a very poor area of D.C., where a lot of their of their friends have unfortunately committed crimes such as shoplifting.

JOSHAnd they've been trying to figure out how if their friends possibly have gone to jail for maybe, let's say, stealing a bag of potato chips and even having to pay a fine on top of that, how Thomas has been able to, in a sense, steal and no real repercussions have come about from this.

NNAMDIThat's a question that we're still having trouble answering. But as we pointed out before, Josh, it was a civil lawsuit. The city is being paid back, and that is what the attorney general for the District of Columbia is primarily interested. And we will have to see what happens with the U.S. attorney's investigation from which they can be criminal charges. We got this tweet from Tom, Patrick. "More than anything else, these scandals hurt the cause of D.C. independence," by which I assume Tom means voting rights.

NNAMDIAnd you can't help thinking that when somebody from Minneapolis, which has had its own share of scandals, calls and says this about D.C., it can't help saying that, come on, the perception of the District of Columbia as being corrupt or having corrupt officials has absolutely nothing at all to do with the issue of voting rights because if you look at places like New Orleans and Chicago, you would say that these people should not have votes in Congress at all. Nevertheless, they do.

MADDENRight. But if that is the sort of metric we use, then there are a lot of places where, you know, should not be able to vote. But at the same -- not only does, I think, the sort of distractions sort of hurt the District's cause for more autonomy, it also theoretically can affect on Wall Street, our image on Wall Street and the willingness for them to, you know, loan the city money, which is very important.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue this conversation on D.C. Councilmember Harry Thomas Jr. agreeing to settle with the city to the tune of $300,000 and your feelings about it. You can call us at 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about D.C. Councilmember Harry Thomas' -- Harry Thomas Jr.'s agreement to repay the city some $300,000 that he took to provide equipment and to provide activities for young people. Our guest is Patrick Madden, a WAMU 88.5 reporter who covers local politics.

NNAMDIPatrick, we got this email from Emily, who says, "I live in Ward 5. The words I hear being applied to Thomas are sick, criminal, thief, done. There's a petition going around asking for a criminal investigation and a recall movement forming. We are mobilizing. I'm also hearing phrases like culture of corruption on the council. Council members would be very wise to call for his resignation now." That recall movement forming, we are mobilizing, that could be the writing on the wall.

MADDENRight. You really -- I've -- you've heard it this hour with all the callers. The story has really touched a nerve. And I think people are very upset about this issue and just about the perception of the council in general. And you sort of -- this isn't the only recall effort that I've heard being banded about. So I think there is a sense that people are really looking for change.

NNAMDINobody's calling to say give this guy a second chance. Here's John in Alexandria, Va.

MADDENRight. You're out there.

NNAMDIJohn, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOHNYeah, hi. I'm just kind of baffled this to how this councilman got $300,000. And it seems like, you know, now, we're at the point where the taxpayers are left holding the bag. I mean, in my experience in dealing with corporate governance issues and companies and with other localities, when there's somebody who is in a position of authority and they're asking to get money and potentially, the organization that is getting that money is one that they run, there's a much greater level of scrutiny. And, you know, the entire board of director has to sign off and so forth, or, you know...

NNAMDIWell, see, in the District of Columbia, John -- and Patrick can probably explain this better than I can -- after the scandal involving Councilmember Marion Barry giving an earmark to a woman with whom he was having a relationship, they ended earmarks.

NNAMDIBut in this situation, it's my understanding that these funds were provided by council legislation back in 2007 to the D.C. Children and Youth Investment Trust Corporation, which at Mr. Thomas' direction passed them on to the Langston 21st Century Foundation -- Langston being a well-known golf course here in the District -- which in turn, at Mr. Thomas' direction, secretly paid most of the money to Mr. Thomas to his for-profit and his nonprofit corporations. It's my understanding that that's how the money...

MADDENRight. This wasn't a traditional earmark when we think about direct payments to groups and nonprofits. This had a very circuitous route to get where to -- where it ended. But as the attorney general lays out, this was an earmark that was directed by Mr. Thomas and his office. And it ended up back in his Team Thomas, which is his nonprofit.

NNAMDIHere is Joe in Ward 5. Joe, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOEHi. I have two quick questions either for Kojo or Patrick. I just -- I can't -- I'm having a hard time remembering. I'm a Ward 5 voter. And at the time of the last election, I think some of these had already started to come out. But nothing have improved. There were just sort of talk, and I believe there is maybe some investigation. And also, in the event that Harry Thomas does not resign, do you know of any viable candidates in Ward 5?

NNAMDIAs I recall, Patrick, it was a Republican candidate who was there.

MADDENYeah, it was -- the last name was Day, I believe...

NNAMDIOkay.

MADDEN...who is the one who's, first, sort of, you know, pointed to this issue. In fact, it was the issue of Team Thomas raising money from private donors. This whole other issue with the $300,000 in city funds wasn't known until the attorney general filed that lawsuit earlier this year.

NNAMDIAnd I think we have time for one more call, and that is Paul in Washington, D.C. Paul, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PAULThank you, Kojo, for taking my call. I've been listening to you since the '90s, been a resident since 1988. Well, my liberal contribution is, call this what you will, but embezzlement or theft by deception or whatever the name, if you and I have done this to our employer, like another caller said, we would probably end up in jail.

PAULAnd as far as the caller who indicated that the behavior of these criminals in disguise does not reflect on us, the voters, I say, it does. It does because I've been questioned, you know, during travels in Spain and Germany, about outrageous behavior of our politicians in Washington, D.C, specifically local politicians, like Marion Barry.

NNAMDIYeah, that's the same thing NBC 4 anchor Jin Vance said when he was on The Politics Hour a couple of weeks ago. If you travel a little bit, whether inside or outside of the city, you're going to get questions about this, but, Paul, thank you very much for your call. Patrick, thank you very much for joining us.

MADDENThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIPatrick Madden will be staying on the story. He's a reporter with WAMU 88.5 who covers D.C. politics. We're going to take a short break. And when we come back, we will be looking from a psychological point of view on why teachers may cheat. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.