MR. KOJO NNAMDINearly a century ago, when blacks were shut out of Washington's swimming pools, John and Bradford Tatum decided to improvise. They jumped into the water wherever they could, dipping into the reflecting pool and the C&O Canal. The years went by and the city changed, segregation fell by the wayside. A black man even made his way to the White House. But the Tatum brothers kept swimming, straight through the segregation era and into their wonder years, all the way to the gold medals they're still competing for in their 90s.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThe Tatums are among the elite senior athletes who will add meaning to the phrase forever young at the National Senior Games in Houston this week. Their story and the story of the Senior Games is part of the documentary film, "Age of Champions." Joining us in studio is Christopher Rufo. He is director of the film, "Age of Champions," which is being featured at the AFI Discovery Channel Silverdocs Documentary Festival.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThe festival began yesterday. It runs through June 26th. "Age of Champions" will play this Saturday at 5:15 and again Sunday at 6:15. More information is available at Silverdocs.com and at our website, kojoshow.org. Christopher Rufo, thank you for joining us.

MR. CHRISTOPHER RUFOThanks for -- nice to be here.

NNAMDIAnd joining us in studio also are the apparently immortal Tatum brothers. Bradford Tatum is a D.C. resident and gold medal winning swimmer at the National Senior Games. He's competing at the 2011 National Senior Games in Houston next week. Bradford Tatum, good to see you.

MR. BRADFORD TATUMGlad to be here.

NNAMDIAlso with us is John Tatum. He is a D.C. resident, also a gold medal winning swimmer at the National Senior Games, also competing in the 2011 National Senior Games in Houston next week. John Tatum, good to see you, too.

MR. JOHN TATUMGlad to be here, Kojo.

NNAMDIYou're both...

TATUMGlad to meet you.

NNAMDI...going for the gold at the National Senior Games in Houston next week. But your journey to these games began a long time ago, all the way to when blacks weren't even allowed in Washington swimming pools. How did you first learn to swim?

TATUMWell, we were really not swimming in the reflecting pool, you know. It's not deep and we're too young to swim.

NNAMDIYou were just fooling around.

TATUMYeah, we'd go and wade in there and also DuPont Circle and in the Rock Creek, Georgetown near the output of the electric place where they had the warm water in the winter time. We tried until we did learn to swim when we had a pool built for us in Washington.

NNAMDIThat was the Frances pool at...

TATUMYeah.

NNAMDI...25th and N, was it not?

TATUMThat was the pool. Then we stayed in there and everybody in that area learned to swim at that time.

NNAMDIBradford Tatum, it's my understanding that you grew up not far from the Frances pool in Foggy Bottom. What memories do you have for what that neighborhood was like back in those days?

TATUMWell, everybody swam. All the kids, girls -- we had girls who could swim as good as we could. And brothers -- big brothers and little brothers, they all went to the pool. And they had free swimming in the mornings and you'd line up and go in and splash around and test your wings and learn to swim.

NNAMDIWhen I saw the film, "The Age of Champions," then I saw you guys at the reflection pool, when you touch the bottom, you said the bottom was not, in those days, slippery and slimy.

TATUMSlimy, slimy, slippery.

TATUMNo, it was clear.

TATUMAnd it had a little slant to it, too. That helped keep your -- the next thing you would be sitting down when you try to stand. It was a slimy mess.

NNAMDIWell...

TATUMAnd I understand they're reworking it now and doing the pool over again.

NNAMDIWell, millions of tourists later, I guess that's what happens after a while.

TATUMYeah.

NNAMDIChristopher Rufo, John and Bradford are just a few of the Senior Games athletes you followed while making "Age of Champions." Throughout the film, we meet a 100-year-old tennis champion, a powerhouse senior ladies basketball team from Louisiana, a prolific track and field athlete from Texas who's kind of like the Jim Thorpe of the Senior Games, just to name a few. How did you find out about the games and what attracted you to these stories?

RUFOWell, we actually found out -- we met the organizer of the Senior Olympics at a conference in San Francisco. And, you know, I'd never heard of the Senior Games and just when we heard what it was, it was an instant, you know, kind of, revelation. It's like, we have to make something happen with this. It's just -- you know, not only the athletic competition but it's really about the personal stories and, you know, seeing, really, a slice of American history through these athletes that are still vibrant, still striving and still have an amazing attitude.

NNAMDIWhat were your expectations the first time you went out to watch some of these athletes compete? Because looking at them in the film, they go at each other pretty hard.

RUFOYeah, you know, it's funny. One of our first shoots was with Roger Gentilhomme, the 100-year-old tennis player. And, to be honest, you know, you don't expect too much. But during an off time, Keith Ochwat, the producer and I, you know, we actually played doubles with him and his 80-year-old tennis partner. And it's a little embarrassing, but they beat us.

NNAMDIThey drop shotted you a lot, I bet.

RUFOThey drop shotted, they sliced, they did everything they could. And it was embarrassing. And that's when we really realized that, you know, it's not just cutesy sports, they're really, really good athletes.

NNAMDIChristopher Rufo is the director of the film, "Age of Champions." It's being featured at the AFI Discovery Channel Silverdocs Documentary Festival. You can find more information about that at our website kojoshow.org. He joins us in studio with brothers Bradford and John Tatum. Both of them gold medal winning swimmers at the National Senior Games. Both of them competing at the 2011 National Senior Games in Houston, next week.

NNAMDIIf you'd like to join the conversation, call us at 800-433-8850. What do you think are the secrets to staying active as you get older? What goals do you have in mind for your golden years or have you pushed them off? 800-433-8850 is the number to call or you can go to our website and join the conversation there, kojoshow.org or send us an e-mail to kojo@wamu.org.

NNAMDIJohn, Bradford, swimming and exercise are part of your lives, part of your routines. But at what point did you decide that you wanted to compete at this age? First you Bradford.

TATUMWell, we started competing, I had the first medal that I ever won and that was in 1933. And at that point, it was fun and exhilarating when you could go after your fellow swimmers and come out on top. So it was great fun.

NNAMDISo you started in 1933?

TATUM1933, yes, the first medal that I ever won as a swimmer.

NNAMDIJohn, what do you get out of competing? When did you win your first medal?

TATUMWell, we swam competitively as kids, you know, the little tee-hee, races there at the local pool, like that. But then, you know, after you go to a high school -- did have a team, but not a pool. My college had a pool, but not a team. Then I went to the Navy. Well, I got married and, you know, you had household things to do, raise a family. And you didn't have time to compete. But I went into the Navy and we had a lot of work to do in the water there.

TATUMBut then after retirement, then I found that I had the time to come and compete with people. So I found out about these people and I just went over and joined a team and started swimming that -- it was in the late '70s, by that time. But I had lost out for many years.

NNAMDIWhat pleasure do you get out of competing today?

TATUMOh, well, body building. Everybody seems to get more out of it than I do. They don't understand how that I still do it. But to me, I'm not the world's best swimmer, you know. I'm not Michael Spicks (sic)...

TATUMSpinks, you know.

TATUMAnd...

RUFOPhelps.

NNAMDIMichael Phelps.

TATUMYeah.

TATUM...Michael Phelps, yeah. But 14-year-olds or 13-year-olds can out-swim me. But still, just a crawl out and limp out to the end of the pool is the thing.

NNAMDII saw the film. You don't crawl or limp out at the end of the pool at all. That's only what you want your competitors to believe so that they take you to lightly. Brad, you told Courtland Milloy of The Washington Post that you skied until you were 80, but that you broke your arm. Do you ever get the urge to put those skis back on again?

TATUMNot really. That's a much more dangerous sport than swimming. I've come out of it, thus far, and I'm not anxious to get back into it now and have further broken bones. But I've kind of given that up.

TATUMThat's the same with me. I'd love to ski again. I mean, it's in my mouth, almost. But I just think it was not to get out there and try, just like they never want me to get up on the ladder again. All the things I need to do up -- working around the house and all. But everybody keeps from doing it. So I don't want to go out on a ski slope and get hurt and hear, I told you so's, you know.

NNAMDIWell, I used to work with a guy who was not allowed to go more than 3 feet off the ground and he was only 32 years old. But he had a slight drinking problem. So that was a different situation. In your case, you are still competing as athletes. Let's go to the telephones. Here is Alan in Washington, D.C. Alan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ALANOh, hello, yes. I just remember biking with my Dad into his 80s and -- late 70s and 80s. And yet the -- now, I'm 55 and the expectations set by these gentlemen in your studio and I guess others in the film are so daunting. I'm just trying to think, should I be getting involved in some master sport like rowing or swimming at this age and -- or start becoming a tri-athlete? It just seems that the expectations are so high.

NNAMDIYou're now in what age group, Alan?

ALANI'm 55.

NNAMDIYou're in your mid 50s now.

ALANYeah.

NNAMDIBrad Tatum, what advice would you give to Alan in his mid 50s?

TATUMGo for it. At 50 -- I wish I were 50 years old again. No, that's the ideal time for you to go, because the senior program starts at 50 years old, and you're 55. So you should be ready to go. I would encourage you by all means to get into it.

NNAMDIAnd Alan, because...

ALANOkay.

NNAMDI...because you're 55 and the senior program starts at 50, you're likely to go into thinking, oh, I'll be competing against a lot of much older people, I'll be beating them. But after you've talked to Chris Rufo for awhile, you'll understand that that's not so easy, right, Chris?

RUFOThat's true.

ALANWell, my expectations are not to beat anybody, just to try to -- try to stay healthy.

NNAMDIAnd that's all you gotta do. Thank you very much for your call. You too can call us at 800-433-8850. Chris, one of the gentleman you followed, Roger Gentilhomme is now 102 years old. When you were making the film, he is the tennis player that you played against. He was doing a lot more than training for his tennis matches. He was riding his bicycle, he was lifting weights, he was playing the piano. He told you that he's become an inspiration for young people as well, not just for people in their golden years.

MR. ROGER GENTILHOMMEMany people keep telling me that I'm an inspiration to them. Not only older people, but the younger people. I had arthritis very bad. I had a cancer operation in '87. I had a hernia. I've lost five inches in height. Now I'm below five foot. But whatever happens, you just have to roll with the punches.

NNAMDIChris, what did you get on a personal level from hanging out with Roger?

RUFOYou know, it's -- you always ask, everyone asks, what's the secret? And I think the secret from hanging out with people like Roger or Brad and John is a positive attitude, number one, and looking forward optimistically striving after something. And I think a big secret that people maybe don't pay enough attention to is family, you know.

RUFOAll of the athletes had supportive, amazing, you know, very loving families. And you can see that with Brad and John. They just had 400 people at their father's day party last weekend, and also with Roger, a big supportive family.

NNAMDI800-433-8850 is the number to call. We're gonna take a short break. When we come back, we will continue this conversation about the documentary "The Age of Champions" and the two champions who are in studio with us, John and Brad Tatum. Again, 800-433-8850. Have you picked up any hobbies or passions later on in life? What turned you on to them? What satisfaction do you get from them? 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're discussing the Senior Games with John and Brad Tatum. They are both gold medal winning swimmers at the National Senior Games, both competing in the 2011 National Senior Games in Houston next week. They're both native Washingtonians. Joining us in studio with them is Christopher Rufo, director of the film "Age of Champions" which is being featured at the AFI Discovery Channel Silverdocs Documentary Festival.

NNAMDIAnd Brad and John Tatum are two of the senior athletes featured in that film. Brad, you trained for the last Senior Games while going through chemotherapy. You had surgery afterwards. What did you turn to for inspiration or for strength when you were going through all of that? I found it remarkable.

TATUMWell, in discussion with the doctor, he said the surgery had to be done prior to my going to California. But I said, no, I have to get to California. I have to participate in that meet, and whatever happens will happen, and I will be -- I will submit for the operation when I come back. And I did. I was successful in California, won a couple of gold medals and all and came back, and we started the chemotherapy. But I -- I just had to do that and not just stop in the middle of it.

NNAMDIAnd I was surprised that the doctor gave you clearance to do that, but he obviously knew what he was talking about. John it seems that you both generate a lot of strength from your companionship with each other, and I know you also participate in a lot of other groups, but some of the people with whom you participated are now gone and that, I guess, makes the companionship of your brother even more important to you.

TATUMIt really does. And when he was going through when he went through, it was a pull on myself, you know. You can't break up this team after 90 years, you know. And we competed against each other and with each other for so many years. As kids, he won most of them, and I won some of them. And then as an adult, we tie. We just -- we go in and out of each other's age bracket. Like now I'm 92 and he's 90, so he's in the same bracket with me again.

NNAMDIBut you know what's the amazing thing about that? In the documentary, I had Brad referring to John as my older brother. My big brother is what he said, my big -- you still think of him as your big brother?

TATUMOh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's my big brother. That's right.

NNAMDIA two year difference.

TATUMYeah, right.

NNAMDIHere is Charles in Washington, D.C. Charles, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CHARLESHi. Brad, this is Charles Martin, the nephew of Jane Martin Tolbert.

TATUMOh, yes.

CHARLESAnd I just wanted to remind of the fun we had in 1990 in Courchevel, France with Black Ski.

TATUMOh, yes.

CHARLESWe miss you -- we miss you on the ski slopes, but glad to hear you're doing well, and just wanted to wish you good luck in Houston, and look forward to seeing the film.

TATUMThank you so much. It's a little safer in the water than it is on the slopes.

NNAMDIYou were a member of that Black Ski crew, huh?

TATUMYes. Yes, I was.

NNAMDISo were you -- yeah. That Black Ski crew is still very much around. For those of you who don't know it, Black Ski has been around since, oh, the 1970s, and it features a lot of African-Americans who like skiing. They go on a lot of trips together. This one, that Charles is referring to, having taken place in France. Charles, thank you very much for your call. On now to George in Gaithersburg, Md. George, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GEORGEYes. I'm the Montgomery County representative to the Maryland Senior Olympics Commission, which for 30 years has run a very extensive full program of senior Olympics events, and sends big crowds of people to the National Senior Games too. And I've been participating myself for 20 years or so. So I'm a great believer in the program, and we want to emphasize the fact that the five-year age group competition means that you don't have to worry about competing against younger people.

GEORGEYou just -- when you turn into the next age group, everything gets easier.

NNAMDIYeah. Well, are you sending any swimmers to the competition this year?

GEORGEOh, yes. Yes. I'm sure that we are. I'm not going myself this year, but I believe -- I'm pretty sure that we will be sending swimmers. I went to Louisville and to Pittsburgh in swimming events, and so yeah. I've been to -- done those events and they're big activities, but the competition is fierce at every age group.

NNAMDICare to make a small wager about whether your swimmers can beat Brad and John Tatum? Oh, I'm sorry, these are the public airways. We're not allowed to make small wagers. (laugh)

GEORGEOne never knows until they get in the water.

NNAMDIIndeed we do. Thank you very much. I notice that Brad and John, even though you guys compete very fiercely, you and your competitors remain very close at the end of the competition. It's really a shared experience, is it not?

TATUMAbsolutely. We -- we cheer for each other and pull for each other, and whenever he does well, I'm proud of him, and whenever I do well, he's proud of me. So it's a shared competition.

NNAMDIChris, another one of the athletes you follow in this film is, as I said earlier, Jim Thorpe, or the Jesse Owens of the Senior Games, Adolph Hoffman, a man in his 80s from Texas. He wins gold medals in everything from the shot put and discus to the pole vault. He's close to 90 years old. What sense did you get from him as to why he's willing to risk injury, life and limb, for pole vaulting?

RUFOAdolph is just one of the toughest guys. He's your archetypical Texas cowboy. You know, he was drilling pier foundations for 40 years on giant highway projects, and he said he would come home after -- after that work, and that he would farm an 80-acre farm by moonlight. You know, he would sleep two hours a night, and it was just work, work, work, and that old-fashioned American toughness that you don't see as much anymore, but really, really comes through.

NNAMDIAdolph Hoffman is a serious competitor. Let's give a listen to what he himself has to say about it.

MR. ADOLPH HOFFMANWell, you know, in the Bible it says you can faith, but faith is dead without works. So if you got faith that you can break a record, or do -- excel real good, you better work at it, because the faith is not gonna get you through it, you gotta do it. I'm a doer. I guess you'd call me a doer with everything I do.

NNAMDIYes, he does. And how did you react the first time you saw Adolph take a spill and fall on the bar in the pole vault?

RUFOYou know, it's tough. You know, you would never recommend for anyone in their late 80s to jump eight feet into the air, you know, using a -- basically a bending stick. But he does it. He gets right back up, you know. He -- at the actual Senior Games he cut his arm open, he was bleeding, and, you know, they put a little bandage on it, went right back and kept jumping.

NNAMDIWhen he misses on the pole vault, he bounces right back up. I mean, just like anybody else would bounce right back up. That's just the kind of spirit he has. Here is John in Columbia, Md. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOHNHi. I'm glad to hear about your guests. I'm about to leave to go to Houston to compete in the National Senior Games tomorrow. I'm gonna be in the race walk, and I'm a master's competitor in both the Junior Games and USA Track and Field Meets, and it's really made a big difference in my life.

NNAMDIHow long have you been doing this? In what age group are you, John?

JOHNI'm 64, and I've been doing this for about 15 years.

NNAMDIAnd it sounds like you're really enjoying it.

JOHNYeah.

NNAMDIWhat distance race walking are you participating in?

JOHNWell, at the Senior Games there's a 1500 meter race and a 5K race.

NNAMDIYou'll be in both of them?

JOHNYes, I am. And the second one's gonna be in Houston in the parking lot of the Astrodome, which should be an interesting experience.

NNAMDIGood luck to you, John.

JOHNThank you.

NNAMDIAnd thank you very much for your call. We move on to Mark in Washington D.C. Mark, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARKHi there. Yeah. I just wanted to wanted to say a couple things to your guests. I don't recall seeing you two at the Wilson Aquatic Center, so I'm just recommending that you guys take a look at it and have a lovely swim there. It's a magnificent facility that got rebuilt by the city about a year ago. It's as 50 meter pool, and I think you guys would love it. And I think those of us who swim there would really be inspired if you guys showed up and did some workouts there.

NNAMDIWell, they're sitting right across the street from it, so they know their way over here. Is that something that you might want to do in the future, Brad?

TATUMYes. We've thought about it. In listening to people, they say the parking around there is so bad that we haven't made the trip. But we understand it's a beautiful pool, and it's 50 yards, which the one that we use is 25 yards. But we'd love to do that. I think maybe we'll do that before we go away.

NNAMDIHey, thank you very much for that reminder, Mark. We move on to Lyndsey in Washington D.C. Lyndsey, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LYNDSEYHi Kojo. I just wanted to thank you for having your guests on your show today. I was a lifeguard growing up for seven years my teenage and college years, at a retirement community. And my friends always thought it was strange place to be lifeguard, and I always told them how inspiring it was to learn from the seniors and be inspired to be a lifelong athlete. And I cherish those summers, and I'm just delighted to hear about the level of competition of your guests, and encourage everyone to keep up lifelong sports.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Lyndsey. Let's ask our guests what their expectations are for this year at the Senior Games. First you, John Tatum.

TATUMYeah. Well, I intend to participate in the 100-yard freestyle, 50-yard freestyle, and the 50-yard breaststroke. Of the three, I feel best about the 50-yard freestyle. The longer the race, the more it takes. But I do expect to do well in the 100-yard freestyle, and the breaststroke I think I will come through on top in that too.

NNAMDILast year you got -- last time you had one gold and what...

TATUMIn each of those three.

NNAMDIIn each of those three events.

TATUMI got a gold medal, yes.

NNAMDIWhoa. Brad, what are you looking out for this year?

TATUMWell, I'm in the same group with him, so I don't know, you know. (laugh) He's kind of tough. I'm 90 and he's 92, so we swim in the 90 to 95 age group. So we -- we've been swimming against each other in previous years, and he's come out on the top and so have I. So we'll both compete and whatever happens happens.

NNAMDIAfter spending so much time with people like John and Brad and watching athletes like Roger and Adolph compete, apart from the support systems that you have seen, Chris, what do you think you've learned from them?

RUFOYou know, it's -- learned a lot of things, you know, about their family life, and just the, you know, how much kind of depth and experience all the people in the film have. And, you know, it's just a really interesting perspective on their lives and also a piece of American history like I said.

NNAMDIHere finally is Lucy in Alexandria, Va. Lucy, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LUCYHi, Kojo. Love you, have for a long time. But this is just a great show today. I turned 61, went through a whole lot of just craziness thinking -- worrying about age, and you guys are making me feel young. I really appreciate. I am so taken by your spirit, and I wonder if you could talk about how much you think forgiveness and love have played a part in your ability to stay with it.

NNAMDIJohn?

TATUMWell, love is a key to all of you. You would be surprised at the love and success and on that the people around you get. Now, the other thing, love is the best of them. Your family, your friends and those you know and don't know, they are supportive, and everybody looks at you with amazement for the little contribution you make.

NNAMDIJohn Tatum is a D.C. resident, native gold medal winning swimmer at the National Senior Games, competing at the 2011 National Senior Games in Houston next week. John Tatum, good luck to you.

TATUMThank you so much, Kojo.

NNAMDIHis brother, Brad Tatum -- his younger brother, is also a D.C. native and gold medal winning swimmer at the National Senior Games. Good luck to you next week also.

TATUMThank you.

NNAMDIAnd Christopher Rufo is the director of the film "Age of Champions" which is being featured at the AFI Discovery Channel Silverdocs Documentary Festival. Good luck to you, Chris.

RUFOThank you so much.

NNAMDIThank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.