MR. KOJO NNAMDINPR has been dealing with the departure of beloved staffers, fallout from a sting video and some glaring editorial errors. That means Alicia Shepard is busy. As ombudsman, her job is to make your voice heard at NPR. Lately, you've had a lot to say, weighing in on controversies with complaints and comments of all kinds. Her three-year term is coming to an end. Time to talk about the storms NPR has weathered during her tenure and where she sees the organization going. As we said, Alicia Shepard is NPR's ombudsman. Alicia, good to see you again.

MS. ALICIA SHEPARDThank you.

NNAMDIPopular NPR analyst Juan Williams was fired on a Wednesday night. What was that Thursday like for you?

SHEPARDIt was probably one of the most intense days in my career in journalism and largely because the reaction was so much more than anyone anticipated, myself included. And my phone never, ever stopped ringing in the ombudsman's office and we had three lines and it just progressively got more intense over the next week or so.

NNAMDIYou received 8,000 emails at NPR.

SHEPARDOh, no, no.

NNAMDIOn the first day?

SHEPARDOn the first day, okay.

NNAMDIThe final tally was more like 25,000 correct?

SHEPARDRight, yes. And I have never experienced anything like that. And what is significant about that number is that in order to send an email to the ombudsman's office, you must go to npr.org hit Contact Us, fill out a form. So this wasn't cut and paste. This wasn't forwarding.

NNAMDIYou described Juan Williams at the time as a balanced analyst for NPR and an opinionated-pundit for Fox. That was always an uncomfortable fit at NPR, was it not?

SHEPARDIt has evolved. It's important to remember that Juan came to NPR to be the host of Talk of the Nation. And at that time, he had the contract with Fox News. So that was always there, but over time, I think it became more tenable. Particularly as we as a culture have become much more politicized and polarized.

NNAMDIWhy were affiliate nations particularly upset about it at the time? Affiliated stations.

SHEPARDYeah.

SHEPARDWhy would they?

SHEPARDWhat, you mean, like Puerto Rico and...

NNAMDIThe NPR nation, yes. Why were affiliate stations particularly upset?

SHEPARDWell, as we all know, who listen to public radio, for about a third of them, I believe, they were in the midst of pledge drive.

NNAMDIYep.

SHEPARDAnd so this e-mail went out at 12:25 in the morning. Those stations woke up, just as NPR staff, to find about that Williams had been fired. And there were no talking points. So the, you know, what I really feel is for the volunteers who were there accepting phone calls and had to take a lot of abuse and stations were scrambling come up with their own talking points and to distance themselves from NPR.

SHEPARDIt's been fascinating to learn and understand the relationship between NPR and the public radio stations, there are about 900 of them. And seems that they both -- they love each other, except when they don't.

NNAMDIIt's the relationship that we have had to underscore and explain from time to time because even our friends and relatives think that we work for NPR when we work for an affiliated station with NPR. You said that, this in many ways bore down to you between -- bore down to a collision of values, if you will. NPR versus Fox, and whether someone on NPR's payroll should be allowed to say something in another venue that wouldn't be allowed on air at NPR. Something that was prohibited by NPR's ethics code. Has that been essentially resolved since then?

SHEPARDIt's been resolved, in that Vivian Schiller, the former CEO of NPR, hired someone to review NPR's ethics code. And they're in the process of doing that now, rewriting it, looking at it, trying to make it more relevant, seeing, probably, ways that this might've protected from this happening. But, you know, I spoke to the board of NPR about a week ago as a final farewell. And I said, you know, the most important thing is, is that, yes, have a good ethics code, apply it evenly.

NNAMDIYou've advocated for an ethics czar at NPR. What would that person do?

SHEPARDI think it's a great idea and this came out of the looking, again, at the ethics code. To really have what they call a standards editor and somebody who, basically, is an in-house consultant. The ombudsman position does that but it doesn't after the fact. So in many ways, ombudsman are arm chair quarterbacks. I've never been involved or had someone come to me and say, we're going to run this story, what do you think? Does it need this or that? And a standards editor would be involved in that.

NNAMDIAgain, we're talking with Alicia Shepard, NPR's ombudsman. Inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. You posted a piece today about George Soros' funding of a reporting initiative. It's creating some controversy and some stations have not pursued those grants because of the source. Tell us about it.

SHEPARDWell, the money did come from the Open Society Foundations, which is clearly funded by George Soros. And it's interesting, George Soros has given a lot of money to liberal groups and is very much demonized on the right. He's known for promoting the money that he puts -- goes toward promoting transparency in media. And as it will probably be mentioned, I am a member of the organization of News ombudsman.

SHEPARDAnd that organization has taken money from George Soros. So just for full disclosure. The issue here is that that money is to be used for a pilot project between NPR and some of the local stations, to try to do a better job of covering state government. We all know that in the cutbacks as newspapers reduce in size, that state government doesn't get covered as well. And so that's the goal.

SHEPARDAnd the piece that I wrote today, just said, diversify the funding as quickly as you can. So that you don't open yourself up to being a handmaiden to George Soros. Will that happen? No, I have...

NNAMDIWhat do you mean by diversify the funding?

SHEPARDGet funding from a lot of different sources. For instance, the St. Louis Beacon, which is a non-profit newspaper in St. Louis, gets funding from John Danforth who is a republican. And then funding from the Pulitzer Foundation was seen to lean toward the left. Those are ways to say, we're not interested in these political agendas.

SHEPARDAnd I should say, in fairness, I don't think -- there is a firewall and NPR has no intention of taking instructions from George Soros, nor is George Soros known for doing that. He's probably one of the funders or philanthropists who are best known for keeping a hands-off approach. So what we're talking about, really, is perception more than anything else.

NNAMDIHere is Patty, in Fairfax, Va. Patty, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PATTYYes, hi. I had a question. I don't know if you've noticed this. But it seems to me, because I've been listening for many years, that shows like "Morning Edition" and "All Things Considered," which had prided themselves in not being soundbite shows, in the last year or so, really have turned into soundbites.

SHEPARDWell, what do you mean, Patty? Because I think all of -- one of the hallmarks of NPR is having rich sound and hearing more from the people than the producer or reporter in a story.

PATTYWell, I know there's -- the sections at the beginning just say, you know, this is what's coming up. But when they do the stories, there are those, you know, who, what, when, where, hows, but there's always something missing and I'm always -- one of them is, why. I'm wanting -- that always seems to be missing, is, why did that happen? And I understand that at a certain point we don't always know the whole story when you're reporting an issue.

PATTYBut I always say, why, why, why didn't you say why it happened? And that just seems to keep going on. More and more stories keep missing a huge chunk of information.

SHEPARDWell, how...

PATTYAnd also...

SHEPARDGo on.

PATTYNo, go ahead, I'm sorry.

SHEPARDI was going to say that, how I could be effective as the ombudsman or the next ombudsman would be for you to send examples. Where you feel that that is missing because...

PATTYTrue, yeah.

SHEPARD...NPR produces two hours of "Morning Edition," two hours of a "All Things Considered," you know, five days a week and then weekend shows. So to say that this happens totality, I think, would -- isn't -- is probably not true, but there may be examples. And that's more helpful for...

NNAMDIAnd you're talking about more contextualizing of the stories. Patty, thank you very much for your call. Alicia, you get lots of emails and phone calls each day like the one we just got from Patty, when you get a complaint about a more specific story, the substance of the story, the accuracy of the story, the emphasis of the story. Tell us the process. What do you do with that complaint?

SHEPARDWell, first of all, we get probably a couple hundred complaints a week. So what -- the first thing to do is to look at the validity of the complaint. Because sometimes it's just -- NPR has now become National Palestinian Radio and -- or that, you know, clearly NPR is in the tank for President Obama. Those are the kinds of things that are -- deal with perception. And we can discuss that later.

SHEPARDThat's much harder to combat. But if someone had a specific complaint, the first thing I would do is, pass it along to the reporter, the editor, the producer in charge of the story and say, what -- ask, what are your thoughts on this? And I should say, the number one thing is to find out if -- to look at the transcript, what the person is alleging was said, was it said? The interesting...

NNAMDIHow often do we hear things that were actually not said at all?

SHEPARDMore than we think. And the thing is about radio, who right now in the audience is sitting down and staring at the radio and paying complete attention? We'd love to think they are, but they may be ironing, driving in their...

NNAMDIAt least two of us.

SHEPARD...yeah. They may be driving in their car, making lunch, you know, working at the keyboard. So that sometimes makes it problematic in terms of how well people listen.

NNAMDIBut after somebody says something and it turns out -- well, first and foremost...

SHEPARDYeah.

NNAMDI...how big is your staff? How many people do you have to check on this?

SHEPARDI have a part-time assistant. And she's someone who -- Laurie Grisham, who has a master's degree in journalism. So she's a really good frontline person who understands what would be ombudsman issues. And I try to make use of interns, particularly journalism interns, who will, again, get a sense of what the issues are. So once I get the complaint and then I look into it, if it merits writing about, then I do write a column and I post that at NPR.org/ombudsman.

SHEPARDNow, I should tell you that as soon as I post it, I immediately notify anyone who appears in the column and I let them know, hey, it's been posted. And in many cases, and this is somewhat controversial, I will show the NPR person, who is the subject, the quote that I'm going to use, the context that it's in. I’m at an odd situation in that I physically have been working at NPR. I get paid by NPR. I think that puts the staff, the journalists at a disadvantage.

SHEPARDAnd I feel that it's important to be fair to them. Does it mean that if they say, well, no, that's not what I would say. I would say, well, is it -- tell me something then to make it more accurate. It's not a matter, to me, of gotcha, it's a matter of explaining and being fair.

NNAMDIBut who edits the ombudsman column?

SHEPARDWell, no one inside NPR. I actually hire someone, John Felton, who's up in Amherst, Mass. He's somebody who, many years ago, worked at NPR so -- as a foreign editor. So he has a sense of how NPR works. Now, I've had 30 years of journalism experience, largely newspapers, magazines. Public radio, NPR in particular, are very different beasts. There's just -- there's no other news organization. And I've been writing about the media for 15 years so I visited lots of newsrooms.

SHEPARDSo NPR's structure is very complicated. And, boy, I wish I could put, you know, a cord to my head and plug it into the head of the new ombudsman and just download all that I know.

NNAMDIYou say that you can explain, but not excuse mistakes. How did NPR explain mistakes made in reporting to the shooting of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords?

SHEPARDWell, that was a situation where the story broke on a Saturday and there's not a newsroom in the country that isn't barely staffed on a Saturday. Things happen very fast. NPR actually broke this story because they have a station out in Tucson. And the wife of the general manager happened to be at the Safeway that day when the shooting occurred. She called her husband, he quickly came down, confirmed it and NPR broke the story.

SHEPARDHow it happened had to do with there not being a refresher course, if you will, about big decisions like that, needing to be checked with certain editors and not necessarily by name, but by position. And it all occurred within 10 minutes that they -- that the staff at NPR got a tip from another public radio station out in Arizona. And they didn't ask the essential question of, how do you know that?

SHEPARDSo the tip came from a reporter that they've worked with before, part of the public radio network and he got a tip from the Sheriff's department. But it turned out, in retrospect, when they went back and looked at it, that it was telephone of, you know, yeah, I heard she died. And it's a key question and it was a terrible -- some say a once-in-a-generation mistake that will always be associated with NPR.

NNAMDIAnd while you can explain it, there really is no excuse for it.

SHEPARDNo. And I don't think -- and NPR -- I don't think NPR would say there's an excuse for it. And they were very apologetic. They did a on-air correction, I believe, that at the time someone at the top contacted the Giffords' family and apologized for that because it caused a lot of pain. For 20 minutes, the Giffords' family, her husband and her step-daughters and her mother, thought that she had died.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones again. Here is Erin, in Washington, D.C. Erin, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ERINHi, thanks for taking my call. I was just calling to comment on what Patty said earlier, because one of the things that I love about the show is that you guys don't give the why to a lot of the things that you discuss. And it requires people to think. Because if you turn on any other news show, they like to give the why and there will always be another person that says, no, that's not what had happened. So you guys avoid a lot of controversy.

ERINAnd I always enjoy coming to -- knowing that you got thousands of people coming to their own logical decisions about the issues rather than you telling them why that you think the way that they do.

NNAMDIWell, I would make a distinction between why as in context and that is, why did the recession occur? Why did the economy collapse? As opposed to, why you think a certain politician said what he or she said, which would almost necessarily involve a bit of speculation. And you want to avoid that. Erin, thank you for your call. We move on to Adam in Reston, Va. Adam, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ADAMYeah, so I was wanted to just, sort of, ask a question in relation to -- it sort of stems from a couple questions you were talking about earlier. And obviously, thanks for taking my call, thanks for NPR. What I noticed that, you know, a lot of times -- and again you'll probably say this is not a comparison and I sort of see that. But what I'm saying here (unintelligible) I noticed that a lot of, you know, NPR seems to be a very apologetic for its views.

ADAMSo not necessarily its views, but, you know, other news organizations which are for-profit, make mistakes all the time. You know, Fox News, they put inaccuracies and mis-facts, you know, all of the stations do it. They're pressed for time. But other times, it's, you know, not necessarily -- purposeful or not. But NPR makes a little mistake, -- well, I guess you could say the Giffords' death thing is not a little mistake.

ADAMBut, you know, one mistake and then everyone jumps on you guys like, you know, like you're supposed pristine and clean in this way that's, you know, it's just unrealistic, in a sense because you are a news organization. So I guess what I'm saying or asking is I feel like people all -- the right-wing and for -- in particular wants to pick on NPR, yet, you guys want to embrace, sort of, that side as well because you wanted to be seen as impartial. But yet -- and realistically, the demographics or socioeconomic groups that listen to you most come from the middle or the last.

SHEPARDYou know, they...

ADAM(unintelligible) ...

NNAMDIHere's Alicia Shepard.

SHEPARDYeah. It's funny that, for instance, on the Giffords' mistake. Other news organizations made the mistake. They didn't bend over backwards to apologize. I would say that NPR has very high standards and tries to meet them as much as possible. And when they make a mistake, they want to apologize. There is nothing wrong with an organization, a news organization that makes a mistake, saying, we screwed up, we're going to learn from it, we're going to try to do better.

SHEPARDI would applaud any news organization that does that because it enhances the credibility. Look, mistakes get made all the time in journalism. In mainstream media, they're not made intentionally. They're often made because of the pressure, the time, got to get it on the air, should've made one more phone call. You know, I just think apologizing is not a bad thing.

NNAMDIAdam, it's my understanding that you also have a concern about how NPR responds to what you characterize as the right-wing. Adam, are you there? Oh, Adam...

SHEPARDWell...

NNAMDI...has left the building.

SHEPARD...certainly, things are much more polarized, as I mentioned, earlier now. And the right-wing is definitely sees NPR as a target. You could say that NPR has made a management decision, a rather large one in a poor decision in how they fired Juan Williams. But lots of news organizations make these decisions. And, yet, that became a very political decision. And targeted by the right for that.

SHEPARDBut that's the reality. That's the world you live in. And so NPR needs, and I think, has come to accept that they live in this world now. And, you know, I often say that, a lot of what has happened, I think occurred because NPR has lived in a quote-unquote, "love vacuum," for a long time. As in, I love NPR. I mean, people who listen are largely big supporters. And -- so I think that they're not -- the organization has not been used to being criticized the way that they have in the past year.

NNAMDIRon Schiller, NPR's former head fundraiser, was caught out in public without his NPR hat on, this spring, at least that's what he said. Now, I'll talk personally as a post wearing my NPR hat. Is it ever okay for public employees to take off their public radio employee hats or to swap their hats?

SHEPARDI would say, the minute that you say, and now I'm going to take off my NPR hat, is when you should shut your mouth. But it does raise an issue. I mean, Ron Schiller, of course, as a chief fundraiser for NPR, should not have behaved the way he did. Yes, he defended NPR. He's explained the firewall. He explained that people who give money don't influence stories, they don't have a say in the outcome of stories.

SHEPARDBut he also behaved incredibly professionally for someone of his stature. Just mind boggling. I'll skip that word.

NNAMDIYes.

SHEPARDBut it does raise a question of who is responsible for NPR in terms of the people who work there and if you are a secretary at NPR...

NNAMDIDoes that mean you can't have a bumper sticker on your car supporting your favorite political candidate?

SHEPARDAnd does that mean that you have to be careful on Twitter and on Facebook as your earlier conversation posts? And these are questions that right now NPR is looking at. Yes, it's very clear their ethics code applies to their editorial department but that is maybe half of the staff.

SHEPARDThere's also technicians, HR, legal, public relations, and so the question is, in today's world, how much do they have to worry about the effect of what they say to their friends, what bumper stickers they put on their car? And this is a tough one because I agree with the panel before about we live in public now and the line between public and privacy is so blurred that my feeling is that, you know, anyone who works for NPR represents them and needs to think about the organization and protecting the only asset that it has, which is its credibility. I mean, that this the ultimate asset.

NNAMDIWe got an email from Mary, in Fairfax, which reminds me of something that has been around since the 1970s and that was, when there were oil companies that were offering funding for programs on PBS, the Public Broadcasting System, in the '70s...

SHEPARDThat still happens.

NNAMDI...opponents of that in the '70s used to call them the petroleum broadcasting service, PBS. So here's the email we got from Mary in Fairfax. "How can Monsanto's support of NPR not influence its coverage of food and farming?"

SHEPARDWell, first of all, Monsanto doesn't support NPR in the way that you think because I'm going to guess that when you hear that funding credit it is for your local public radio station. I believe WAMU gets funding from Monsanto. NPR gets some money to run banner ads on its webpage.

SHEPARDBut the point is that if you're a long time listener, you believe in the credibility of NPR and that there is a firewall there and that there -- NPR is, well, it's non-profit. It still needs to get money and it needs corporate sponsors and it needs funders and donors and philanthropists giving money to meet their budgets.

SHEPARDSo there is no cause and effect. If you take money from Monsanto, I promise you no one in the newsroom is thinking, we should really not do that story because it's going to make Monsanto look bad. There's a real disconnect between the editorial and the people who are working for NPR that are going out and getting funders.

NNAMDIIndeed, if you know anything about reporters, there will probably be reporters in the newsroom pushing more aggressively to do those stories precisely because they're being underwritten.

SHEPARDWhich isn't fair either because then they're trying to prove that they're not influenced.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation with NPR ombudsman, Alicia Shepard, and your calls at 800-433-8850, your email to kojo@wamu.org, your tweets at kojoshow or join the conversation at our website, kojoshow.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation with Alicia Shepard. She is the NPR ombudsman. She is -- will be in that position until July of 2010.

SHEPARDNo, no. June...

NNAMDI2011.

SHEPARD...June of 2011.

NNAMDIUntil July 1st of 2011.

SHEPARDJune 1st.

NNAMDIJune 1st of 2011.

SHEPARDYes, yes. I've got a week to go.

NNAMDISee, she corrects all mistake. Public radio trades and productive conversations but some online news forums struggle to maintain civility in their comments sections. How does NPR.org manage that problem?

SHEPARDThis is a fascinating issue because the question -- one of the questions is our content, I'm sorry, is commenting content and so what role do you have as a news organization and I would say that since NPR added commenting back in 2008 that they've really struggled with trying to do the right thing.

SHEPARDAnd now it's become apparent that to really be able to foster civil dialogue you have to spend money and have some kind of moderation. And they've done different levels. Initially it was three strikes and you're out. If people reported abuse then they've hired a company in Canada that is a bunch of retired journalists who are familiar with NPR's guidelines and that this point they aren't monitoring everything on a pre-moderation basis.

SHEPARDThey're only monitoring the repeat offenders who get kicked off and then new people. And in a way probably just need to monitor the sites where the story's going to be controversial. For example, President Obama's speech last about the borders or the lines of where the negotiations for, you know, two separate states should begin. You know on that website that there's going to be a lot of meanness, attacks, criticisms of each other.

NNAMDIWhenever we do a program on the Middle East we also have to be very careful about that here because even though listeners are asked to give their names when they call in they can give any name that they want to and under the cloak of anonymity say just about anything. How does the NPR comment section deal with the issue of anonymity?

SHEPARDWell, right now you must sign in. you must create an account but of course you can create an account in any name you want and -- so the anonymity exists and I...

NNAMDIYou're not a big fan of anonymous callers?

SHEPARDI'm not and I think it's always important to know that as the ombudsman I get particularly vicious, cruel comments. Like, you know, can't wait until she leaves, she's such an idiot and, you know, you have to have a thin -- a thick skin to do this job.

NNAMDIWhy are some of the most passionate complaints about Lady Gaga, Justin...

SHEPARDBieber.

NNAMDI...Justin Bieber, Barbie -- what is it about pop culture that makes people so ornery?

SHEPARDI don't know. Maybe it's just a fascination with it or the fact that it's -- it's something that everybody seems to know about. I mean, people who don't even know Lady Gaga's music know what she looks like, how she dresses, what her name is and I really can't answer that.

SHEPARDI deal more with that issue in terms of how much coverage should NPR give Lady Gaga if she does something bizarre and should Michael Jackson's death be covered on an everyday basis. Tiger Woods -- just those issues that you might think of as -- when you're at the shopping center, when you go to the grocery store and you're standing in the lane and the things that you would read on the cover of "People" magazine.

NNAMDIToday it's probably Lance Armstrong, but that's another story that we're covering later.

SHEPARDYes. Last week, it would have been the Schwarzeneggers and...

NNAMDIExactly right. We'll be talking about that, I think, on Thursday, the Lance Armstrong controversy. On to the telephones, here is Victor in Vienna, Va. Victor, your turn.

VICTORHi. My comment is that I have liked this -- the more coverage of international news, not only from this country, which usually there are, but for example, Argentina in the last few months, ex-presidents, chiefs of the military, police, judges are going to jail. There are interesting court cases regarding the dictatorship that ended 30 years ago and nothing of that is being heard in NPR.

NNAMDIVictor, as someone who was born in a foreign country, I can't tell you how many times I am stopped by people from my own relatively small country to complain that they don't hear enough about our country on the airways. Alicia, how is that dealt with at NPR?

SHEPARDLimited resources. NPR is actually quite amazing in terms of the number of foreign bureaus it has. It has about 17 and South America is definitely under-covered. Julie McCarthy was there and then she was switched over to Pakistan where they felt there was a greater need to have a reporter.

SHEPARDI believe there's a part-time person who's based in South America. But, you know, every day decisions are made on what to cover and what is going to be of interest and relevance and things are not going to get covered and that is a perfect example and there's really nothing that can be done except people donate more money and NPR opens more foreign bureaus. But right now you've got to manage your resources.

NNAMDIThank you for your call Victor. We move on to John, in Fairfax, Va. John, you're on the air, go ahead please.

JOHNHi, thanks for taking my call. I've been a long-time contributor and, in fact, I've been a three-time new contributor to WAMU as we've moved in and out of the area with the Air Force. And I'm moderate. I voted both Republican and Democrat over the last 25 years.

JOHNI love the in-depth coverage in the political, environmental and energy issues but it sounds like I'm hearing for the first time that NPR management is actually admitting that they're polarizing and my question is, where does a moderate go for balanced coverage now?

SHEPARDI'm not sure, John, where that -- how that came across. I don't think that NPR management at all considers itself polarizing. I mean, the goal of -- they're not thinking and making news decisions based on trying to appease a polarized environment.

SHEPARDI'm saying it exists. It is out there, but all of the things that have happened to have given NPR such a tumultuous last six months have really little to do with the journalism. It has all been at the management level. And when you step back ,you realize the journalism is just as strong before October 20 when Juan Williams was fired, now as it was then and so I would not...

JOHNBut it feels to me like things are really changing right now and...

SHEPARDWhy?

JOHNYou know, well, Juan Williams was let go because of comments he was making that were conservative and how many other...

SHEPARDThat's just...

JOHN...programming going on, specific things that just bug me.

NNAMDILike?

JOHNIn the week after Juan Williams was on, Anne Rice was Diane Rehm and really made some negative comments about the Catholic Church, which is okay, it's her feeling. But, you know, years ago when it was Derek McGinty and Diane Rehm -- I mean, I've been listening for a while, after statements like that were made, there'd be a blanket statement saying the views of our guests do not reflect the views of the station and I don't hear that anymore.

NNAMDIOne of the discussions we have on this broadcast all the time, John, is that we have a lot of authors who have opinions. And therefore, you get them on the air and they express opinions -- and we realized a long time ago that we could not attempt to refute or balance every single opinion that an author or somebody in the public has. But here's Alicia Shepard.

SHEPARDAnd what difference would it have made in the case of Anne Rice if Diane Rehm had said we don't -- that doesn't reflect our values. I mean, Anne Rice is on because she's an author and those are her feelings and I know that as a listener.

SHEPARDI would think that you know that as a listener. And I just have to jump in and say that one of the ways that Juan Williams firing was poorly handled was that it wasn't well explained and Juan Williams was not -- was not fired for saying one remark.

SHEPARDThere had been an ongoing issue with Juan Williams and things he said on Fox, you know, much -- from almost the time I got there in 2007. So, yes, it was poorly handled. NPR has acknowledged that, but it was not because he said one remark.

NNAMDIAnd speaking of the other side, Juan was on "The Diane Rehm Show" for an hour explaining his side of the story. So thank you for your call, but speaking of author's controversy surrounding three cups of tea, author Greg Mortenson's questionable integrity has people thinking twice. Does a story like this impact the decision making process for NPR? After all, how do you fact-check an author if the publisher hasn't thoroughly fact-checked that author?

SHEPARDIt's almost impossible to do that. I could only imagine that -- let's someone, Serija Surety Nelson, who based in Afghanistan and knew about Greg Mortenson and might have said, be careful with this guy. He's fast and loose with the truth. But then that -- I mean, there's nothing that NPR really could have done in this particular case and there are lots of people, lots of news organizations who bought into, you know, Greg Mortenson's story.

NNAMDIOnto Airzan (sp?) in Washington D.C. Airzan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

AIRZANHi, Kojo. So my question is this. A couple of weeks ago, maybe about two weeks ago, in the morning edition a reporter reported about swipe fee controversy in Congress, approximately a week before that the Huffington Post had written the exact same story.

AIRZANThe reporter did not give any -- did question -- call the Huffington Post for any comment nor did the reporter acknowledge that Huffington Post wrote the exact same story and used the exact same sources as the Huffington Post source in their story.

SHEPARDWell...

AIRZANWhat do you do with an issue like this?

SHEPARDThat sounds like a job for the ombudsman in the sense that what I would've hoped was that you would send me the link to the Huffington Post story, the link to the NPR story and then I could actually look into that. As to -- and I didn't hear you what it was, the scandal or what it was that the issue was.

NNAMDIWas it swipe fee story you said?

AIRZANRight. It's the swipe fee story, how Congress in the last couple of months has really, you know, been inundated with lobbyists about swipe fees, using credit card fees and -- how important that that issue has...

NNAMDIIt's an issue that we also discussed on this broadcast. What Airzan seems to be saying is that Huffington Post broke the story.

SHEPARDThat may be true and I would have to go back and look at the two stories before I could comment on it. Often times, news organizations pick up stories from other -- from one another and then they re-report them. I don't know that -- again, it would be unfair for me to comment on this without having looked at both those stories.

NNAMDIAirzan, thank you very much for your call. Alicia Shepard, this job comes to an end for you at the beginning of June 2011 this year. What are your plans immediately afterward?

SHEPARDI like to say that I'm like a senior in high school and that I'm the waiting list for a few colleges and I haven't gotten in yet and I'll let you know.

NNAMDINo plans to bicycle from Amsterdam to Paris again?

SHEPARDNot right now and I wonder if I could still do that.

NNAMDII think you could still do that. Alicia Shepard, is NPR's ombudsman. She will be moving on from that position at the beginning of June 2011. Allow me to say on behalf of the staff of this show and on behalf of a whole lot of listeners to this station, thank you very much, job well done.

SHEPARDYou're welcome and thank you for saying that.

NNAMDIThank you.

SHEPARDI was just going to say it's been a privilege.

NNAMDIThank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.