MR. KOJO NNAMDIWelcome back. How do you feel about banning smoking outdoors in public places? Is it something that we should do here? You can call us at 800-433-8850. Where do you stand in the debate over the rights of nonsmokers to breathe clean air versus the rights of smokers to make their own health choices? 800-433-8850. Starting today, it's illegal to light up a cigarette in outdoor places in New York City. That means Central Park, Times Square or the Coney Island Boardwalk and Yankee Stadium are all now smoke-free.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThe ban is an attempt to protect New Yorkers from second-hand smoke and comes eight years after the city banned smoking in bars. New York City banned smoking in most restaurants in the year 1995. New York's endorsed smoking ban prompted something of an international trend to do the same. So it's no surprise that the Big Apple's move to make outdoor spaces smoke-free is also drawing interest from around the world.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIWe're interested in your opinions about this, 800-433-8850. Are there outdoor spots in the Washington region that you think cry out for a smoking ban, maybe ballparks, public pool, city playgrounds? 800-433-8850. Joining us now by telephone from New York is Fred Mogul. He is WNYC Radio's health reporter. Fred, thank you for joining us.

MR. FRED MOGULGood afternoon.

NNAMDIThe smoking ban that takes effect today prohibits smoking in outdoor public places, including the 14 miles of city beaches and the 1,700 New York City parks. That means no more lighting up in places like Central Park, Battery Park, Washington Square Park. How will this impact New Yorkers who smoke?

MOGULWell, you know, on a day like today where I was in -- there wasn't a lot of them out there. It's pretty overcast and rainy. But picture a nice summer day or a spring day on one of our very crowded beaches, one of our very crowded parks where you, you know, literally have people very, very close to each other. This is New York City after all. Not a lot of them -- so many of them are less smoking, fewer and fewer over the last decade or so.

MOGULBut there's enough. And even in the open air, there are people who don't like it. And, you know, as a result, they're pretty happy, I think, about this regulation going through.

NNAMDIA 2009 City Health Department study in New York found that 57 percent of New York adults who are not smokers nevertheless had an elevated level of nicotine in their blood, indicating recent exposure to second-hand smoke. The national figure is a little lower, 45 percent. How did that study influence this debate over the outdoor smoking ban in New York?

MOGULI think that gave it, you know, it gave it further ammunition. There are certainly people at the upper reaches of our local government, Mayor Bloomberg has a public health school named after him in your area, at Johns Hopkins. He's a big advocate of small government in many regards. But he is a very outspoken critic of smoking. He's had a very activist health commissioner, the one who's now the current head of the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta.

MOGULAnd that health commissioner's successor are both very, very active. So, they're, you know, looking as it were for ways to narrow the numbers of smokers. And studies like that gave them evidence that and data that support it. Again, the city where we live on top of each other, quite literally. That's what most people attribute that high level of nicotine in the bloodstream to is our close proximity even though we're below the national average for the number of smokers.

NNAMDIWe are talking with Fred Mogul. He is WNYC Radio's health reporter. We're talking about a smoking ban that goes into effect in New York today in public spaces like parks and beaches, and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. How do you feel about banning smoking outdoors in public places? Is it something we should do here or not? 800-433-8850. I say or not, Fred, because civil libertarians in New York oppose this measure. What were the arguments about individuals' rights and the role of government in telling people where they can and cannot smoke?

MOGULRight. Well, there are certainly people who have felt it's been a very powerful intrusion for many years and it's one many things they point to. The smoking has been certainly the most visible and perhaps has had the greatest impact. But this very aggressive interest I've referred to in public health has also led the department and the city government to lead a ban for trans fats, for instance, in our diet. And these are the sort of things that drive libertarians off the wall. They say that this is not the role city government, or any government frankly, should play.

MOGULAs with seatbelts on the highway, they believe it should be up to individuals to take care of themselves or not take care of themselves as they see fit. And that it's not the role of government to do this. So, there are still plenty of them out there. I don't know how many precisely, but there are, you know, there's a fairly robust majority that supports the smoking ban, both generally and I think this most recent addition to it. But that doesn't mean there aren't many, many people who oppose it.

NNAMDIMany, many people and the New York Times editorial page, which editorialized against the outdoor smoking ban, quoting here, "No smoking at the crossroads of the world? The vortex of tourism that brings smokers and nonsmokers in great numbers? The site of the world's most famous New Year's Eve party where who knows what goes on? All of this takes the merest nannying too far." And for those of us who want to avoid the hazards of second-hand smoke, do you think nannying is being taken too far as smoking outdoors is being banned? Call us at 800-433-8850. Here is Benjamin in Southeast Washington. Benjamin, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BENJAMINThank you, sir. I teach health and physical education in Southeast D.C. We frequently talk with students about second-hand smoke. And my students complain all the time about getting second-hand smoke by standing at bus stops. We have these nice new glass bust stops all over southeast. But when it's raining and you're standing in the bus stop with someone smoking next to you, you have nowhere to go. So I think it's the government's job to protect these groups of people from second-hand smoke.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for your call. That obviously echoes the sentiments of all of the people on the New York City Council who voted in favor of this. And it was a vote by a wide majority, Fred Mogul. How much?

MOGULNow you're catching me. I did mean to go back and look it up.

NNAMDII think I read someplace that it was like 46 to 12, something like that -- oh, 36 to 12. The city council passed...

MOGULYeah, that sounds about right. I think it was close to three-quarters. It's a 51-member board. And, frankly, I'm surprised it was even that high supporting it. So I apologize for not double checking that before coming on the air. But it was a big majority.

NNAMDIYou should know that here in the Washington area, the town of Friendship Heights in Maryland back in 2000 approved what was then characterized as the toughest outdoor smoking restriction in the nation. And then a year later had to, well, snuff it out. It repealed the smoking ban, concluding that the ban after two adverse court decisions could harm the national movement to take the war on smoking outdoors. Has there been any reports at all of a likely lawsuit as a result of New York City doing this?

MOGULNot that I know of. The libertarians you mentioned have frequently sort of threatened to sue, but there are legal actions in the past that haven't gone anywhere. I don't know that they have any significant question on which to base another challenge. But it certainly is a possibility.

NNAMDIWell, in Friendship Heights, it was considered the toughest outdoor ban in the nation. Does New York, therefore, now have the toughest outdoor ban in the nation? When it says public spaces, does this also mean sidewalks and any places else outdoors?

MOGULNo. It does not include quite any place. So public spaces are the ones that you initially rattled off.

NNAMDIParks, beaches.

MOGULCertainly sidewalks are public spaces, but these are very delineated. So we are talking about parks and boardwalks and beaches, and pedestrian plazas, which is sort of the closest to a sidewalk. And we do have increasing number of pedestrian plazas really in the heart of Manhattan.

NNAMDIStarting today, it's my understanding that the city can issue a $50 fine to people who smoke in outdoor public places. Will this ban be hard to enforce?

MOGULIt will be interesting to see how much -- how many summons they issue and how much money they rack up for it. I think they are taking certainly at the beginning a fairly light touch with that. I think they've been quite explicit that they hope fellow citizens will go and tell people that there's a new law in effect. They have posted signs and the park workers and other law enforcement agents have been told about it.

NNAMDIOne problem though, Fred, one problem is that in places like Times Square, a lot of the smokers are international tourists. These people are using to smoking in their home countries. They get hit with a $50 fine and they're catching a back home in two or three days. Do all of these people now become fugitives? Do they all...

MOGULI can do you one better. I met a German woman in Central Park who was -- yeah, was indeed an hour and a half from her flight back to Germany and was not -- distraught would be a little strong, but she was disappointed to learn she couldn't have one last cigarette in Central Park before she took a cab to the airport. And indeed I found other -- more intentional scoff laws from overseas who, unlike the German woman, had heard about the ban and nonetheless thought it was balderdash and that they would smoke and let New York...

NNAMDIWell, you've got to wonder, do they lock them up until they pay the fine because they're considered quote/unquote "flight risks"? Who knows? We've got to take a short break, but we've got a lot callers on the line. So Fred, hang on, we'll return to the subject after the break. If the lines are busy, you can go to our website kojoshow.org to offer your opinion about banning smoking outdoors in public places. 800-433-8850, or our website, kojoshow.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. We're talking about a New York City law that went into effect today that bans smoking in public parks and beaches and specifically a number of public places where large numbers of people gather. We have been talking with Fred Mogul, WNYC radio's health reporter. I know you've got to go Fred, but just quickly, after New York City banned smoking in bars and restaurants in 2003, other states and even other countries began to do the same. Do you get the impression that this outdoor smoking ban is likely to be copied also?

MOGULWell, there is that consciousness of New York being a bell weather or a bully pulpit of sorts. I think that's part of what we're talking about with this mayor helping to set a trend and other things when they banned trans fats in city restaurants, which also had various powers that be up in arms. That ban really took off nationwide. So they're hoping likewise on the smoking that this might indeed kind of set the -- send some ripples both around the country and around the world.

NNAMDIOkay. Fred, thank you so much for joining us.

MOGULThank you so much.

NNAMDIFred Mogul is WNYC radio's health reporter. Now onto the telephones. Here is Ed in Arlington, Va. Ed, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

EDGood morning, Kojo. One thing that -- personally, I think the ban doesn't go far enough. The issue that I have in addition to the clean air, is the darn clean roads and sidewalks. I live on Glebe Road in Arlington, and I hate to tell you the number of cigarette butts I have to clean up every weekend when I mow my front yard. The, you know, drivers by just throw them out the window.

NNAMDISo even though they are technically smoking in the privacy of their own cars, the fact that they throw their butts out the window make that a public nuisance. What do you think should be done about that, apart from the littering laws already on the books?

EDAs far as I'm concerned, smoking should be banned except in a person's individual house.

NNAMDINo, not in cars either, huh?

EDMm-hmm.

NNAMDIOkay, Ed. Thank you very much for your call. Here we go with Oscar in Arlington, Va. Oscar, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

OSCARYeah, hello. I'm originally a New Yorker. And as you can see, the New York City Council passed this new law, but it really affected my education too, but that's a whole different other story. But I think it shouldn't -- they shouldn't have this effect because in New York City they're passing all these big brother laws like they're taxing soda, trans fat, I mean, I like my Whoppers with trans fat, and you know, I'm not a smoker, but I don't think the city should be telling people what to do. That's my opinion.

NNAMDIToo much of a nanny state for you, huh, Oscar?

OSCAROh, definitely.

NNAMDIWell, here's what we got from Jonathan by e-mail. "I don't smoke cigarettes, and I'm not a fan of the habit. In the past, I supported banning smoking in bars and restaurants, and I'm old enough to remember no smoking rules on airplanes. However, this seems a bit extreme. Maybe no smoking in state parks is okay, but not being allowed to smoke anywhere outdoors? If someone wants to smoke in the open air, and then properly dispose of the butts, how is that my business?"

NNAMDIWell, in New York, Jonathan, it does apply to certain public spaces, and as Fred Mogul told us, not all outdoor locations. It applies to parks, it applies to beaches, and it applies to -- let me see what else here. Central Park, Times Square, Coney Island Boardwalk, Yankee Stadium, and some very specific places in addition to the some- 1700 New York City Parks. But I guess if you just happen to be standing on the sidewalk, it's okay then. But here is Todd in Mt. Airy, Md. Todd, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TODDHello. I'm an asthmatic, and I don't agree with smoking at all, but I just the law might be going a little too far. I feel bad for some smokers when they have to huddle in private places out of the way, in and cold and the wind. I mean, it's hard enough already. I just feel like if they want to go to a park and maybe smoke away from all the people, maybe have enough courtesy to do that. But, you know, to ban it from those areas is just -- I think it's going a little too far.

NNAMDIOkay.

MOGULAnd -- thank you.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. You too can call us 800-433-8850 is the number to call. How do you feel about the smoking ban in many bars and restaurants in our area? What are the impacts on smokers, non-smokers, and on the businesses involved from what you can see? Call us at 800-433-8850. We go on to an e-mail we got from Bernard in Gaithersburg, who writes, "No man or woman is an island unless and until the activities of people occur in vacuum. What they do impacts others. And so it is with smoking. Libertarians object on pure theory, not on practical considerations."

NNAMDIWell, I guess the New York Times had in mind a practical consideration when it thought it would probably drive tourists away from some of the more popular tourist areas, tourist locations frequented in New York City. We'll have to see what happens, which is one of the reasons why we asked about your observations about how it affected businesses like bars and restaurants after the ban took effect here. Here is Martha in Washington, D.C. Martha, your turn.

MARTHAOh, thank you, Kojo. Well, I'm very glad that guy with asthma called in, because I have heard that the rate of asthma is going up in places where smoking has been going down. Now, what I think is that -- I am a smoker, and I would not be so upset about a ban if a legal remedy were also applied to people that hop in their cars at will, because cars constitute 30 -- well, cars and trucks, 30 percent of our greenhouse gases. It seems like the country is swatting at flies and ignoring the octopus.

MARTHAWhat don't they have laws that nobody can eat out at a restaurant unless they take public transportation, or walk?

NNAMDIYou seem to be suggesting that if all of these things were done, Martha, you would stop smoking.

MARTHAWell, it would be a lot -- I don't do other drugs. I don't do drugs that are illegal. I don't want to go to jail. And when there's sort of a legal consensus about stuff, I tend to adhere. But the fact that I hazard a guess that a lot of the people that are making these laws also drive cars and don't think about it...

NNAMDIThat's what I'm suggesting. You seem to be suggesting yourself that if these matters were handled in a more even-handed manner that those of us who drive cars were also prevented from getting into our cars, then you might be more disposed towards considering ending your own smoking habit.

MARTHAYes. That's exactly what I'm considering and saying.

NNAMDIWell, you have passed the word on, Martha. Thank you very much for your call. We move onto Anne in Bethesda, Md. Anne, you're on the air. Go ahead please.

ANNEYes. I just wanted to say, I wonder if outdoor smoking would be okay if smokers considered what is upwind and downwind, and -- when there are people around that, you know, blow the smoke in their face.

NNAMDIWell, I am sure there are smokers who will tell you that they try to avoid blowing smoke in people's faces but, you know, sometimes the wind changes direction and you can't tell whether or not there's somebody in the way of your smoke.

ANNENo. No. No.

NNAMDIA lot of smokers do try to be considerate.

ANNEWell, you know what, I think when they get outdoors, they feel free and they don't care.

NNAMDIAnd so you are in favor of the ban in public spaces?

ANNEOh, absolutely.

NNAMDIOkay. Anne, thank you for your call. We got an e-mail from Kay in Washington D.C. who says, "I think a ban on smoking over such a wide territory where few have the luxury of private outdoor space, is definitely taking things too far, especially given the international character of New York as you have pointed out. The likelihood of damage to any given person by that highly disbursed outdoor smoke is minimal and certainly very slight compared to many more noxious and unavoidable forms of pollution from hazardous chemicals and noise," says Kay.

NNAMDIWe move onto Patty in Alexandria, Virginia. Patty, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PATTYHi. I just wanted to raise the issue -- I'm kind of undecided about it, but I think that the way I would be persuaded to think that the ban was okay and that it was the government's business, is whether -- how much harm it's doing to the public in terms of public health costs. Because when people say, oh, you know, I want to ride a motorcycle, and I don't want to wear a helmet, I totally get that. I think that's a great thing.

PATTYThey shouldn't have to wear a helmet. But on the other hand, I don't want to pay for their kids when they have brain damage. I don't want to pay for all the years of medical costs. And if they've really proven that second-hand smoke in a congested urban area is damaging and causes more people in the emergency room to have asthma and second-hand smoke irritation, well, then he has a point.

NNAMDIWell, as I said earlier, the city health department study found that 57 percent of New York adults who are not smokers nevertheless had an elevated level of nicotine in their blood, indicating recent exposure to second-hand smoke. What the report did not say is the likely health effect of that albeit temporary rise in nicotine levels in their blood and what that could ultimately cost the city, although I have not, I must admit, personally read the report. Patty, thank you very much for your call.

PATTYThanks, okay.

NNAMDIOnto Sarah in Falls Church, Va. Sarah, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SARAHHi. I actually went to a school in Johnson City, Tennessee, called East Tennessee State University. It's about 15,000 students, and they recently banned smoking I want to say in August of 2009 or 2010. And honestly, at a school of 15,000 people, with only about a mile-wide radius, not that big, it's completely unenforceable. I didn't necessarily agree with ban. We actually had a tobacco, ban, and as far as I was concerned, what are -- like you could go off to online or to another corner store and get herbal cigarettes, and as far as I'm concerned they may be considered, just as bad.

SARAHI'm not sure about the health considerations, but those will be just as harmful to people with asthma. Why not just focus on tobacco and not just the overall anything that you could smoke, as well as breathe, outside that are still legal.

NNAMDIWell, I suspect the response to that from members of the New York City Council and Mayor Bloomberg would be you control what you have the power to. You control what you can. There are other smoking bans in Los Angeles. Starting March 8 of this year is was illegal to smoke in outdoor dining areas like restaurant patios, bars, nightclubs and buildings hosting private events are exempt from that policy. California prohibits smoking inside restaurants and bars.

NNAMDIChicago since 2007, the Chicago park district has banned smoking along the beachfront and in parks with playgrounds and play lots. I guess that specifically intended to protect children. Sarah, thank you for your call. On now to Mustafa in Bethesda, Md. Mustafa, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MUSTAFAThanks, Kojo. I think the ban is a bit too radical. It's not a complete solution. Banning smoking in public will not make people not smoke in public, just as that caller just has said. I think they need to include smokers in finding a permanent solution to smoking. Let's say you could ban it in public places, but then allow them booths or designated spots where air or second-hand smoke can be controlled and ventilated. Use those spaces to educated.

NNAMDIBut here's this we got from Joanne in Columbia, Mustafa. Joanne writes, "I think New York City is heading for unintended consequences. Pushing smoking indoors means higher concentrations of carcinogens in smoke in those enclosed places where smoking as allowed, and will likely result in poorer health for smokers and all those who share their homes. It's going to backfire."

NNAMDIHow about the notion, Mustafa, that Joanne talks about that if you limit it than more people will be smoking in smaller spaces?

MUSTAFAWell, that's -- as I said, education has to be an important part of this problem. You cannot just attempt to, you know, make it illegal and hope that people will just -- I'm gonna stop smoking. We've learned over the years that the laws don't work. People still do drugs. People still do plenty of things that are on the books already.

NNAMDIOkay. And I'm afraid...

MUSTAFAI'm a smoker. I'm a smoker. I would love to quit smoking, and I tried Chantix and the whole works. I bet you, if you were to create those designated locations, eventually people would just get tired of reading all the literature about the things...

NNAMDIMustafa, you have the last word, Mustafa. Thank you for calling. And thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.