MR. KOJO NNAMDISome events carry enough emotional weight to unite people in spite of their differences, whether they are tragedies like the Pearl Harbor bombing or space shuttle explosions. Now, nearly 10 years after the events of 9/11, Americans are coming together to talk about the death of Osama bin Laden, in some cases, celebrating it -- the mastermind behind those attacks. But while some may celebrate bin Laden's death, others may be hesitant to revel in the suffering of others, even someone so widely despised.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISo how do we talk about such emotional moments and how do we make sure those moments don't create divisions? Here to help our discussion is Howard Ross. He's a diversity consultant and principal at the corporate consulting firm, Cook Ross. Howard, good to see you again.

MR. HOWARD ROSSHi, Kojo.

NNAMDILet's take a listen to the sounds of people who were celebrating in front of the White House last night, compliments of WAMU 88.5 reporter Patrick Madden.

GROUPUSA, USA, USA, USA, USA.

NNAMDIHoward Ross, what does this say about the way we've collectively dealt with 9/11 for the past 10 years?

ROSSWell, I think it -- you know, we've been in this perpetual state of post-traumatic stress as a culture and carrying the fear around us, moving from that illusion of security that we all had until -- well, not all of us, but certainly a lot of us had around -- before 2001 to, all of a sudden, this imminent sense -- and most of us remember immediately after 9/11 that sense of what was going to happen tomorrow or the next day or the next day. That's of course stretched out over time.

ROSSBut underneath that, the undercurrent of that fear that's with us is still there. And so something like this happens and it gives us that sense of relief, release from fear and security for at least a moment. It was really fascinating. You're watching it because you almost could have imagined the crowd shouting, we are number one, like at the end of a basketball tournament or something. It's that energy, that release, being there. My colleague Holly Schaefer (sp?) reminded me this morning that Mark Twain once famously said I've never wished a man dead, but I've read some obituaries with great pleasure.

ROSSAnd there is that part of us that stops and says, wait a second, or doesn't stop at that moment and says, wait a second, what are we cheering here? You know, this was a necessary thing. And I think most people would agree, it was something we had to do. But does that mean that we have that kind of, you know, reaction to it. And where does that come from? And I think it comes from this release from fear. We saw another example this weekend in a lot of people's reactions to Gadhafi's son and grandchildren being killed.

ROSSAnd once again, you know, the headlines, three grandchildren get killed and I saw somebody interviewed on the news, just one person, but nonetheless saying, yeah, that'll teach him. And it's like, wait a second, you know, these are three children who got killed here. Can we at least have a moment of humanity enough to say, this may have been a necessary thing to try to get him, people might believe that, but that doesn't mean we can't still at the same time have sadness about the fact that children are killed collaterally by things like this.

NNAMDIWhat was your own response to the death of Osama bin Laden? You can call us at 800-433-8850, 800-433-8850. Send us a tweet @kojoshow. E-mail to kojo@wamu.org or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. Here is Gary in Washington. Gary, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GARYGood afternoon, Kojo. Yeah, I'm one of those who feel that the expressions of joy and outright delight in killing this man is wholly inappropriate because a lot of people say that we are a Christian nation. And this reaction is wholly un-Christian. Also, it's inappropriate because we're still losing the war in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I would rather have bin Laden alive and free and have effective honest government in Afghanistan or Pakistan or, you know, miraculously both or even here in the District of Columbia. That would be a lot better than having this man dead, even if it was the right thing to do.

NNAMDIWhen you say even if it was the right thing to do, the president said that justice has been done. Do you agree, Gary?

GARYI think -- I don't -- I wouldn't call it justice. I would call it appropriate in the idea that we're at war, that this man has been trying to create not only division, but death around the world. It's a good thing to go after people who are doing the wrong thing. I wouldn't -- I don't think justice is for mankind to meet out. But, you know, we have to do effective things.

NNAMDIHoward Ross?

ROSSWell, I think that, you know, we each have our own personal philosophies. We each have our own religious philosophies. And so what's considered Christian or not is obviously, to some degree, interpretative. But I do think in the heart of what Gary is saying is that what I was saying too, which is that we tend to react in extremes. You know, we feel that frustration. We feel the fear of having bin Laden out there because bin Laden has been made the poster child.

ROSSAnd even though most people rationally know -- I'd say an overwhelming number of people rationally know that bin Laden's death does not ease the fear of al-Qaida virtually at all. I mean, everybody says already that it's been set up as a network so that it will continue. And we still have this issue to deal with. There is that moment where we can take a breath and say, at least we don't have to be scared for this moment. We can rejoice and once again kind of delude ourselves into thinking that we can get anybody and that makes us safe.

NNAMDIBut the fact that he accepted responsibility for 9/11 and for the bombing at the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, I think, plants in the minds of some people the notion that we have caught someone who we know is guilty for the deaths of thousands of Americans and therefore we have a right to express ourselves, whether in celebration or as a sense of relief.

ROSSYeah, I think, absolutely. Well, I mean, my sense was at least that guy's taken care of. You know, I mean, I have the same kind of reaction. I was -- I'm not suggesting that there's no -- that it's not appropriate to have a sense of relief or any -- or a sense of justice, however we define that term. And Gary's right, you know, what do we define as justice, or what -- is it vengeance, is it justice, whatever? But this is somebody who claimed credit for the very things we're talking about.

ROSSThis is not somebody who there was any question about had any involvement with it, at least according to his own word. And so the fact that he's now been held accountable for that is consistent with our rule of law. It's consistent with the way we see the nature of the way things should happen, which is that people are held accountable for the crimes that they commit. And my only point is for us to watch where that becomes a complete other reaction that takes into a whole other domain, which is celebrating something that was necessary.

ROSSI mean, I often look at when people come out of trials, for example, where a family member had been killed and the person found guilty. You rarely find people dancing in the street when that happens. You find there's a sadness present. It's, you know, we're glad that this person is being held accountable, but it doesn't ease the pain of the 3,000 people who died in New York or the people who died in the Pentagon.

NNAMDIGary, thank you for your call. We move onto Mamadu (sp?) in Silver Spring, Md. Mamadu, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MAMADUHi, thank you for having me, Kojo. And I'm just going to piggyback on what your guest just stated. I think I was a bit troubled, and I find myself waking up at 2:00 in the morning being a bit surprised by the reaction I saw. Now, some of the kids in front of the White House were just kids. In New York City, I understand the anger and the rage is real, and I think that's a sentiment that's fairly well shared across the country.

MAMADUHowever, to see the national media portray the reaction to this event as, you know, one type of reaction, I didn't just see the diversity of reactions. It sounds as though everybody was just excited and happy and joyous. Actually it's a pretty sad event. This man is a criminal, he's murdered, and I think we've all passed judgment on him already, so it doesn't matter. This belongs on page 26. Thank you.

NNAMDIThank you, Mamadu. The fact that we have the notion that we have already passed judgment on him, I guess, exists in the realm of fact.

ROSSRight. Right. Exactly. We all hold that as if it's fact, as opposed to that's interpretation. Certainly we knew that there were also weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. That was another fact that we've operated on similarly because of the fact that Saddam bragged about them. But -- and nonetheless, I think that there's certainly -- you know, I certainly don't question the notion that there's an accountability which was present in this regard and that he chose not to surrender, and instead to fight, and as a result of that he made that choice.

ROSSBut again, what does that mean about us and our collective reaction to this fear that we're dealing with? And even more importantly, how -- what are the other ways that this fear impacts us. I mean, for example, you know, I've been fascinated to watch this -- what's been going on around Donald Trump, you know. This cynical buffoon who really, with the maximum amount of cynicism possible, takes his beliefs on certain things, switches them almost by the day as it fits, you know.

ROSSThrows first this birther thing, which has less credibility than the aliens who are supposedly stockpiled in Roswell, New Mexico, and yet, you know, trumps that up (laugh) trumps that up -- uses that. Now, as soon as that's gone, we're now going to questioning a president who, if anything, people accuse of being quote "an (word?) professor" because he's so intelligent, and accusing him of not being qualified. And how is he able to do that, and how is it that medial people are constantly looking to put him on?

ROSSIt's because he's preying on that exact fear that we're talking about, and using it as a manipulative way to get attention. And that's the question, is how is that fear impacting our society on an ongoing basis, on a macro scale in the way we're talking of, but also on a micro scale in terms of our reaction to things like immigration, in terms of our reaction to the people we're working with. It's in our culture now, and we have to be more attentive and aware of it.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. If you have already called, stay on the line. We will get to your call when we come back. We'll continue our conversation with Howard Ross. He's a diversity consultant and principal at corporate consulting firm, Cook Ross. 800-433-8850, or go to our website kojoshow.org. Send us a tweet @kojoshow or e-mail to kojo@wamu.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're talking with diversity consultant, Howard Ross. He's a principal at corporate consulting firm, Cook Ross, about the reactions to the death of Osama bin Laden around the nation, and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850. Howard, terrorism functions, as you pointed out, by instilling fear, that fear obviously bleeds into other parts of our lives or our society, especially if you happen to be living in Washington or in New York City in the post-9/11 environment.

NNAMDIHow do we discuss topics which frighten us in a constructive manner?

ROSSWell, I think that the key in dealing with fear in any aspect of our lives is being able to be present to the fear, and realize the affect it's having on us. Now, for most people, fear is not the concern that we have, it's fear of fear that is the concern. In other words, we want to get away from that feeling as much as possible. So if I'm afraid of something, or uncomfortable with it, I look urgently to find some way to get away from that feeling.

ROSSAnd that is, I do something, I blame somebody else, I call an alarm, you know, we have different ways that we react to that depending upon our particular personality structure. But all of those reactive modes are based on being able to stay present to that feeling of fear. If we could stay present to the feeling of fear and just recognize, okay, I'm afraid. Now, understanding that, what's the appropriate reaction, behavior, etc cetera, et cetera, the thing to say or do as opposed to just being a reactive machine.

ROSSRollo May once said -- the famous psychologist from back in the '70s and '80s, or '60s, '70s, and '80s, once said that freedom is the pause between stimulus and response. And that's the real key, you know. What is in -- is there something in that pause when we feel afraid but are willing to look at it rather than run from it?

NNAMDIHere's is Rebecca in Waterford, Va. Rebecca, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

REBECCAHi, Kojo. Big fan of the show. Thanks for having me on. I was in New York on 9/11, and I now live in Virginia. But what was striking to me, as somebody who does not -- I don't believe in the death penalty. I don't think that vengeance is really a worthwhile pursuit. And yet, when I found out what had happened yesterday, I had tears of joy. It was a very unexpected reaction from me. And I -- because I don't, you know, I actually don't necessarily think that killing him was maybe the best form of justice.

REBECCAPerhaps he should have been tried. But as a person on just a very deeply emotional level who experienced something terrifying, this was -- this had the affect of relief that really was very surprising to me.

NNAMDIHow do you explain that, Howard? Rebecca was surprised by her own response given her stated points of view.

ROSSWell, I think Rebecca's response is very common, and we often don't know exactly how we're going to respond to things that have that kind of emotional depth. And certainly any of us who was in your situation, Rebecca, having particularly been -- and I wasn't in New York, but I have numbers of friends who were there and very close by during that time, who I have talked to who, you know, also found, even at the moment, reactions that we don't expect to have.

ROSSI mean, any kind of traumatic circumstance does that to us. I remember I was mugged a number of years ago, and, you know, I always had this thing in my mind if anybody came up to me and tried to mug me that I would be able to talk my way out of the circumstance. And I remember being, you know, shocked and somewhat dismayed by how, you know, how much came out of me that I didn't know at the time, or the way I reacted in ways that I would expect. And I think that's a natural human phenomenon for it to occur.

ROSSThank you for your call. There's a report from the Associated Press that says Catherine LaBorie was the head flight attendant on United Airlines Flight 175. Her father, Gene Yancey of Colorado Springs, Colorado, says it's good that bin Laden is gone, but that his emotions will always be open and raw.

ROSSRight. Very much what we're talking about. I mean, I think there are an awful lot of people probably who, after the moment, probably find themselves feeling that there's a poignancy and a sadness, and the reality that getting this guy doesn't bring back our loved ones. In fact, it reminds us of the sadness that he caused.

NNAMDIHere is John in District Heights, Md. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOHNYeah. When I first heard the information, I felt sad and I felt extremely angry. I felt sad because when I think about all the people in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Iraqis that we have killed in this war on terror, and no one has been held accountable, not even remotely, and the money that has been spent. But this man can be so evil that when he is assassinated like that, that we as a nation can rejoice, but we as a nation cannot hold our own accountable for the atrocities that they commit on those people over there.

JOHNAnd my mind tells me when those people sit down after the shock wear off, they're gonna really take a good hard look and see just how imbalanced we are as a nation of people who can do this, jump up and shout -- and I've been listening to all the politicians ever since this morning, and no one seems to have any recognition of how we are going to appear being such hypocrites to the people over there, and at the same time talking about Pakistan is untrustworthy.

NNAMDIOkay, John. Allow me to...

JOHNWhen we don't even...

NNAMDIAllow me to have Howard Ross respond. Because on the one hand, John, there is no unanimity in this country on the fact that the U.S. is committing atrocities in the Middle East, but there is some unanimity on the evil that Osama bin Laden brought to bear on us. But I think that John does strike a responsive chord in some people because we do not seem to mourn the deaths of innocent people in that part of the world in quite the same way as we celebrate in some cases the death of Osama bin Laden here.

ROSSWell, I think that there's no question that that's true. And I think that what John's speaking to is a reminder of an old saying that I heard -- I don't even know where, at this point, years ago, that every villain is a hero in their own story, and that there is another story there. And there are people in the world who see Osama as less evil, or even as heroic. And then there are people who see what we're doing as anywhere from heroic to evil depending upon our perspective.

NNAMDIThere are people who see innocent people who are killed by drone attacks and feel that we have not expressed a sufficient level of remorse over those deaths.

ROSSWith good reason. And I think that there's a bigger question in all this, and it's something that concerns me about the sort, you know, categoric black and white polarity that we view things in, that somebody is absolutely good and absolute evil. We look at not just Osama bin Laden as an individual, but what terrorism is about now, particularly Islamic terrorism, and we hear this story that's being trumped up and, you know, the access of evil story. And these are evil people who are out to get us simply because of who we are, because they don't like our way our life, et cetera.

ROSSAnd there's no responsibility in that to that there's a broader system at play in which people are responding to things of the American people and through our government, through our military, through various things that we've done over the years have triggered that response. It wasn't like somebody woke up one day and said, let's pick America. Now, whether that's justifiable or not, we could all have different opinions about, but there is a bigger story than this.

ROSSAnd when we turn people into cartoons of all good or all bad, we miss the depth of that story and the deeper story. And I think that's why, as a result of that, you know, folks like John have kind of the reactions that are there, which is that there is another side to this, and we need to be more complex in how we look at it.

NNAMDIHere is Jay in Arlington, Va. Jay, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JAYHi, Kojo. Thanks for taking my call. I was actually calling, in part, to relate a story from last night. I'm a American Muslim convert, and I was watching the news after I got word that bin Laden had been assassinated. And I guess the TV was too loud and my three-year-old son, just turned three over the weekend, came and he -- he sort of tried to go back to sleep on me. And as I was holding him there, I couldn't help but think or feel a certain sense of hope that maybe with bin Laden's death there's a sense of closure from 9/11.

JAYAnd there maybe wouldn't be as many recriminations against the larger Muslim community, especially the American Muslim community that my son is gonna be a part of, God willing. So it was really almost a self-serving or -- I don't know if you want to call it selfish feeling of just maybe self-interest and preservation for my own family that maybe things might get better.

NNAMDINo. I suspect that there are a whole lot of people who are non-Muslim, Jay, who hope that for Americans, not necessarily for relatives of the victims, but for Americans, that this does bring some sense of closure here.

ROSSBut I think that there is something -- I agree with you, Kojo, and I think what Jay's speaking about very specifically -- I mean, our friend Arsalan Iftikhar, who has been on the show with us before...

NNAMDIYeah.

ROSS…wrote a column this morning for CNN, or a blog in which he talked about what a relief this was for Muslims, and how there are lots of Muslims who are celebrating. In fact, not only that this man is somebody who organized the killing of a lot of Muslims as well as non-Muslims, but that the shadow that Jay is talking about, is a shadow that casts long, and Islamaphobia is a real problem in our society today for the overwhelmingly, you know, tremendous percentage of Muslims who are citizens of the United States just like we are, who are residents of the United States who care about this country, and who don't abide by that kind of fundamentalist murder.

ROSSAnd so it does, in fact, relieve, but what it also speaks to is that our -- we identify with certain people more strongly than others. And we actually have brain research that shows this, this notion of mirror neurons that we had that says that we have a tendency towards the natural empathy to people who are like us, and we also have an association that we make with people who are like each other. So when we see this person, the poster boy for bad Muslim all the time, it does naturally bleed over to people.

NNAMDIWe had a caller who couldn't stay on the line who wanted to talk about the demographic of the people who seemed to be celebrating. That caller seemed to feel that it was mostly younger people who seemed to be celebrating. And we got this e-mail from Kate in Arlington, who writes, "I understand the desire to be with others at this important time. I understand the exuberance of youth and desire to celebrate some success after 10 years of abstract loss. My niece from George Washington University went to the White House.

NNAMDII get why she went there. I wanted to be with others as well. I used Facebook to connect. Clearly, however, these celebrations will not play well abroad."

ROSSWell, I think that's true. They, you know, I remember back in -- when I was involved in demonstrations back in the '60s, and if you did them at this time of year, you know, a lot of the element where people who would have been out doing panty raids, but instead they were now doing street protests. And we always had to separate the people who were really serious about the politics from the people who were just there because that was the good time that people were having.

ROSSThere's certainly some of that in these kinds of things, but the interesting thing is the reactions from abroad have been very muted generally, which is kind of interesting.

NNAMDIAnd finally, this e-mail from Jane in (word?) . "We shouldn't be cheering in the streets. I think one of the reasons people take to cheering in the streets is because in modern warfare, we don't seem to have the luxury of victory in the traditional sense, as we did with conflicts of the past. And so there's really an opportunity to claim success. While I agree that justice has been served, I always took pride in thinking Americans are better because we haven't stooped to the antics we often see on TV from extremists overseas who cheer and burn our flag after wreaking havoc on Americans."

ROSSYeah. I mean, I think that for the most part, as a culture, we could do well to practice -- consciously to practice developing a sense of deeper equanimity so that we're not so thrilled when something like this happens, and we also can confront our fear and our sadness on the other extreme as well and maintain that sense of solidity to us. I think the decisions we make and the way we'll treat each other will be a lot stronger if we do.

NNAMDIHoward Ross is a diversity consultant and principal at corporate consulting firm, Cook Ross. Howard, thank you so much. Always a pleasure.

ROSSThank you, Kojo. See you soon.

NNAMDIAnd thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.