MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Politics Hour," starring Tom Sherwood. I'm Kojo Nnamdi. Tom Sherwood is off today. We've got two guest analysts. Mike DeBonis of The Washington Post whose on-again, off-again talking relationship with Ward 8 Councilmember Marion Barry is apparently on again.

MR. MIKE DEBONISWe're best buds, Kojo.

NNAMDISo it would appear. Judging from your column today, you and the former mayor were just chatting it up, weren't you?

DEBONISYeah. You know, he's great conversation.

NNAMDIAnd apparently, this chat-up had to do with redistricting and how the former mayor would like Ward 8 to include certain parts of Southwest and Southeast Washington where National Stadium now is and the Southwest Waterfront.

DEBONISRight. So you -- so, of course, many Washingtonians, you know, Ward 8, when they hear Ward 8, they think of bad things, sadly. Marion Barry wants them to think of some good things, like the baseball stadium and waterfront development and things like that. Unfortunately, the people who actually live there in that little piece of what is now Ward 6 aren't so happy about the prospect of Marion Barry will be their councilmember, so...

NNAMDILet the negotiating begin. Let the games begin.

DEBONISWe'll see.

NNAMDIOur other guest analyst is Dorothy Brizill. She is the executive director of D.C. Watch, the city's most dedicated government watchdog insisting on transparency and accountability or a nitpicking nuisance, at least in the eyes of some city officials. Dorothy, isn't that correct?

MS. DOROTHY BRIZILLI think so.

NNAMDIYes. But we prefer to go with the former description.

BRIZILLThank you.

NNAMDIThis is, of course, "The Politics Hour," and this week, the politics in D.C. had to do with the at-large election, the special election to replace now Chairman Kwame Brown. But speaking of Kwame Brown, let's start with the latest news first because it is my understanding, Dorothy Brizill, that the chairman is going to be deposed by the Office of Campaign Finance as a result of questions having to do with his 2008 campaign funds. The controversy, I suspect, is where he's going to be deposed.

BRIZILLWell, I was so delighted to be invited this morning. I thought I'd save this for your show. As many people know, the Office of Campaign Finance recently completed an audit of Kwame Brown's 2008 campaign. Now, they're in the process of finishing their investigation. Yesterday afternoon, they deposed Kwame's father, his brother, and the gentleman Charles Hawkins who heads Banner Consulting, the company they laundered money through. Well, on Monday, Kwame Brown himself will be deposed under oath by the Office of Campaign Finance, but rather than be at a D.C. government facility such as the Reeves building where the Office of Campaign Finance is located, they are indulging him and going to his lawyers' office, Fred Cooke's office, at 10 o'clock on Monday morning.

NNAMDIHe is being deposed in his lawyer's office?

BRIZILLYes.

NNAMDIIs that -- is there a precedent for that in the District of Columbia?

BRIZILLWell, you know, I've been doing this a while. I would say nearly 20 years, and I have had complaints at the Office of Campaign Finance against several mayors and several elected officials. This is the first instance I know that a show-cause hearing or a deposition occurred outside the offices of the Office of Campaign Finance. So this afternoon after your show, I am going to proceed with an appeal to the board to find out why this special treatment is being accorded Kwame Brown.

NNAMDIAnd as I've said before on this broadcast, I've known Kwame Brown's father for over 30 years, so I have to say the firm through which they allegedly laundered money...

BRIZILLYes.

NNAMDI...at this point. Mike DeBonis, do you know of any precedent for this in D.C.?

DEBONISI don't. All I know -- correct me if I'm wrong, but when President Bill Clinton was deposed during his many troubles, that didn't happen in the Oval Office, as I recall. They went to a lawyer's office or some other -- he didn't get to have the deposition where he wanted it. So someone with a better grasp of history from the late '90s might correct me, but I'm pretty sure you don't -- just because you're the big boss, it doesn't mean you get to pick where you get to answer these questions.

BRIZILLWell, why this is particularly troublesome is that we have had a mayor, Mayor Williams, who had several issues before the Office of Campaign Finance, and he always presented himself at the offices of the Office of Campaign Finance. Now, there is an explanation for possibly doing it in an attorney's office if, for example, the Office of Campaign Finance wasn't accessible. If, for example, there were records at the lawyer's office that were voluminous that could not be transported, but none of that is the case. So I simply would like to know, I think, the Office of Campaign Finance has done a good job to date doing an audit report. I simply want to know why they are having this deposition at Fred Cooke's office.

DEBONISWell, Mr. Cooke, you know, who's out there, and I'm sure is a very avid radio listener, should feel free to call in and explain if he wants to. What's the number, Kojo?

NNAMDI800-433-8850, Fred. 800-433-8850, if you choose to call in on the broadcast. The special election this week resulted in a well-known name being returned to the D.C. City Council, Vincent Orange, who Tom Sherwood once joked had his name on the ballot so many times that it should be a permanent fixture on the D.C. ballot. But this time, it came through, and Vincent Orange is, at least for the next 14 months or so, going to be an at-large member of the D.C. City Council.

DEBONISTo some surprise -- no, not much surprise. Vincent Orange, after trying and trying and trying again, is back on the D.C. Council. So kudos to him. It shows that sticktoitiveness and persistence has its rewards. So, unfortunately, the sad fact is that more than 70 percent of the electorate chose someone other than Vincent Orange, so he may still have his work cut out for him when he runs again in 2012.

NNAMDIMore than 70 percent of the electorate who voted.

DEBONISWho voted.

NNAMDIMore than 70 percent of the electorate didn't really vote...

DEBONISAt all.

NNAMDI...at all. Dorothy Brizill, any comment, any insights on this election?

BRIZILLWell, you know, I think that it's always the tendency to draw a conclusion from a single election. I would rather not do that. What is interesting, however, is that the turnout was larger than people expected. It was closer to 9.5 percent rather than to 7 percent. The wards that went for nonblack candidates were Ward 1, which went for Patrick -- for Mr. Weaver. Wards 2, 3 and 6 which went for Patrick Mara. I asked the mayor at his weekly press conference whether or not the fact that the voting broke along racial lines, at least the wards that are predominantly still black voted for Orange, and those which are predominantly white voted for nonwhite candidates. Whether or not that sent a message as regards whether or not his one-city theme was in jeopardy.

BRIZILLAnd he said that, you know, essentially he would have to dig in his heels and just work harder. I think that it -- I think this was just a special circumstance. We had nine candidates. We had some unusual atmospherics going on in terms of, you know, a lot of people didn't want any of the candidates. They were distracted by what was going on with Vincent Gray and with Kwame Brown. So I'm reluctant to make any major conclusions, and, as Mike has pointed out, the race is still very, very close, and we still have absentee ballots to be counted, special ballots are counted, and provisional ballots to be counted.

NNAMDIAnd that seat is going to be up for election again next year...

BRIZILLRight.

NNAMDI...so we'll have to see what happens then. Dorothy Brizill is our guest analyst. She's executive director of D.C. Watch, which is an online magazine that covers city politics in Washington. Mike DeBonis is our other guest analyst. He's a reporter at The Washington Post. Under Mayor Vincent Gray's budget, the number of police officers would likely drop by the end of the next fiscal year from 3,870 to about 3,700, approximately 100 fewer than Police Chief Cathy Lanier has said the city needs. Mayor Gray's budget tells people across D.C. agencies to do more with less. Cathy Lanier joins us in studio now. She is chief of the Metropolitan Police Department in the District of Columbia. Chief Lanier, always a pleasure.

MS. CATHY LANIERGlad to be here.

NNAMDIWell, you have said that the number at the department would drop to a level that you consider to be trouble, a level where you have to get more creative to make things work well. Well, how do you plan to get more creative if this budget carries the day in the coming months?

LANIERWell, we've been getting creative. I think what a lot of people don't understand is that we haven't had money in our budget to hire police officers since June of 2010. And so since June of 2010, that number of attrition has been chipping away. So we've been creative in terms of using technology to be more efficient and, you know, combining specialized units. We're eliminating some specialized units, and we're just going to have to continue to do that. At least, there is funding in the 2012 budget to get that 120 going, and I know the mayor is going to do everything he can to, you know, try and help us keep that number up and keep us from going below that 3,800.

NNAMDIWell, there are some other numbers that are currently in your favor, levels of crime, particularly homicides, have dropped significantly in your time as chief, even though there are those who've always argued that that's really a nationwide trend. But what concerns do you have about how reversible those trends might be if you can't get staffing to where you're comfortable?

LANIERWell -- not the homicide issue. I think just service the community in general. But the population of the District continues to grow. And if you haven't ridden around Washington D.C. in the evening, where it used to be the nightspot was always Georgetown. Now, you have U Street, and you've got Chinatown, and you've got, you know...

NNAMDIColumbia Heights.

LANIER...H Street and, you know...

DEBONISLet's not forget Adams Morgan.

LANIERAdams Morgan.

DEBONISLet's not forget Adams Morgan.

LANIERThere's -- I mean, so our nighttime population almost swells as much as our daytime population because you look at the tags of the cars riding around Maryland, Virginia, and we've got more residents living in the city. So just being able to provide the level of service that we provide to the community is my big concern because, you know, when people dial 911, they expect to see a police officer.

DEBONISChief, can you explain where the, you know, we have this magic number of 3,800 that is, you know, like you say.

NNAMDIYeah. Where did that come from?

DEBONISWhere -- it's -- so this sort of like -- this is where the thin blue line has been drawn. Previously, you know, 4,000 used to be the goal. You know, we need 4,000 sworn officers. Now, that was two or three years ago. That was always the goal. Now, it's 3,800. Where are we getting this figure from?

LANIERWell, there's no magic formula, and I think the police agencies all across the country have always struggled with this because it's a question people always ask. What is the right number? I say I don't -- I wouldn't feel comfortable below 3,800. That was my number, and I based that -- and was in my performance hearing. I based that on 21 years of policing here, and what I look at is not just crime. Crime is one of many factors. I look at our response time to calls for service. We're coming in on Priority 1's, you know, our response time is around five minutes or so, which is still a really good response time. Our, you know, is the public happy? You know, we monitor our listservs and the public is free and happy with the Metropolitan Police Department right now.

LANIERSo it's response time to calls, you know, the service that we're providing. Crime is still going in the right direction. So all those things tell me that right now we're okay. What I'm concerned about is the increasing number -- the economic development, the increasing number of population because for every new residential property that opens up, our calls for service go up about 30 percent that first year. And so those calls for service are going to start to slow us down over time if we don't have the right number of officers, so...

DEBONISYou mentioned...

NNAMDIIf you have questions or comments for Chief Lanier, call us at 800-433-8850. Fred Cooke hasn't called. 800-433-8850. Or you can go to our website...

DEBONISI have his number here. I have his number if we want to call him.

NNAMDI...you can go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. Dorothy Brizill?

BRIZILLI'd like to ask the chief this question. I agree with you the issue is the level of service to the community. But when you have incidents in the past week or so where you had this Charlie Sheen getting a police escort, and then at the mayor's press conference the other day, he announces this pilot project in the Fourth District where the police department are going to be out there giving tickets for littering. You know, I live in Columbia Heights. Yes, we've had our -- I would like to think we've had our bad days behind us, but first and foremost, I want a police officer out there to be doing his job in the public safety sector. I don't particularly want him writing littering tickets. Moreover, how do you address the issue of this Charlie Sheen escort? I'm hearing from people in the police department that there was no order preventing such activity by police officers.

LANIERWell...

NNAMDIAllow me to say for the benefit of our listening audience in case you haven't been following all things Charlie Sheen, the police escort that Charlie Sheen received on his way from Dulles Airport to a recent gig at Constitution Hall is what we're talking about. The Examiner newspaper reported this week that contrary to statements that the police chief has made, the department does have a policy for escorting celebrities, sports teams and the like, a policy that lays out approaches for dignitary and non-dignitary escorts. Is there such a policy, Chief Lanier?

LANIERYeah. And, actually, if you look on our website -- and I said this on the 20th, the day after the escorts, so it's not magical -- general order 3036 is dated 1974, and it's on our website. It's one of our public general orders. In 3036, it specifically states, "Police vehicles shall be used to escort duty for the purpose of providing security for the president, the vice president of the United States and such visiting heads of state and their representatives who may require extraordinary protective measures because of the political conditions that exist at the time and the mayor of the District of Columbia."

LANIERThe other general order that's on the website and has been on the website, special order 0506. When asked for reimbursable detail, which this escort, by the way, Ms. Brizill, was allegedly gonna be a reimbursable detail. The officers were not pulled from crime duty. They were off duty. (laugh) They came to work this off duty for a reimbursement. But in reimbursable details, that there is a case-by-case basis for exceptions to that policy, but it has to be submitted through channels with a recommendation for approval, and that requires it to go all the way to the assistant chief and be approved.

LANIERSo, I think, you know, the policy is clear. The policy exists. I ran SOD for five years. I know what we allow and what we don't allow. There's no policy that's gonna give you every single circumstance. I mean, you just can't -- there's always gonna be a way to consider requests for certain things that are just not laid out in policy.

NNAMDIAnd as to the issue of littering tickets, we have a call. The -- Justin in Annandale, Va. on the writing tickets for littering, to which Dorothy Brizill objected. Justin, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JUSTINI know that there are a lot of bigger concerns to deal with in the District and every city with a police force, but I just have to applaud the littering tickets. I think it's awesome. Littering really bothers me, especially cigarette butts. I think it's disgusting. It deals with -- it relates to the Anacostia River way problem. It relates to our society in so many different ways. And I really applaud it. I understand that some people think that they should be doing maybe more important things, but I feel littering is very important. So thank you very much for this conversation.

NNAMDIHow do you deal with these quality of life issues at a time when you're having to cut budgets and not being able to have the level of staffing that you really like?

LANIERI mean, this is what we do every day anyway, Kojo. I mean, in this issue, just so I don't ignore your point about it is, people are very passionate on one side or the other. We get a lot of issues like that, you know, where this littering issue, there are people that are extremely passionate, like the caller, about, you know, I can't stand to see people throwing cigarette butts out their window, and then people who say, wait a minute, I want my cops doing police work in my neighborhood.

LANIERSo we have to make those priority decisions every day. An officer who's en route to a call for service is not gonna stop to write a littering ticket. And they have to make those judgment calls.

BRIZILLBut, Chief, this is my issue. If I stand on K Street and I see a car run a red light and there's a police officer standing right there, invariably, he doesn't write a ticket for that car running a red light. Moreover, my concern is, is that under this provision, in terms of this enforcement for littering, it's not only writing a ticket. The order that's come out from the mayor's office said that the police officer can also arrest an individual. How much time are you gonna take an officer off the street to make an arrest of an individual for littering? At some point, I agree, you have to make your priorities, but this is not simply writing $75 or $100 ticket, you're saying the officer can also arrest the person.

LANIERWell, the arrest is for refusing to provide your -- for refusing to tell us who you are so we can write the ticket. Now, I don't see this being a big arrest issue. And I certainly -- you know, my philosophy with my police officers since I've been the chief is I'm a not a huge fan of zero-tolerance policing. I think it does just what you say. It takes police officers off the street for very minor crimes. And then while they're on -- processing the arrest, the more serious crimes occur. So, you know, the officers are gonna have to use common sense, and I hope that is not the case that we see.

DEBONISChief, I've already heard some concern, you know, from civil liberties advocates that perhaps these could be used as a pretext to, you know, stop someone who's, I mean, maybe suspicious to the police or, you know, otherwise minding their own business and that that might be a pretext for a search or some other thing. Is that how this is gonna be used by your officers?

LANIEROh, that's never the intent of any law for us to use it as a pretext, so no. But -- I mean, again, this is one of those issues, you know? The laws are put on the books, and my job is to enforce them. So this is something and I think that the council members have heard extensively about -- when this law was being put together, they had hearings. They've heard from people and, you know, you had people on both sides. But the law is the law now and we have to enforce it.

DEBONISIs there sort of a -- is there a goal or a number of tickets or quotas or anything that we put in place for this?

LANIERNo. No. Not at all. In fact, you know, just to kick this off, as Ms. Brizill indicated, we're gonna start off in the fourth district. There is a pilot and a warning period. So for the first 30 days, there will be warning. And then after that, the citations will be issued. But...

DEBONISAnd you won't be able to get a number of how many were issued and...

LANIERYeah. I believe we're able to track those, yeah.

NNAMDIChief Lanier, one of your officers shot and killed an 18 year old on Elvin's Road in Southeast this week who was carrying what looked like a gun but turned out to be a BB gun. What guidance does the department give officers when they're in these kinds of situations? And where does it fit into officer training?

LANIERWell, I mean, the guidance for law enforcement use of force is largely case law. I mean, there's a case law that governs how deadly force is used, and we abide by those, you know, case law standards. Now, we do have very specific training. I think the issue here is -- and I'm gonna stay away from talking specifics on this case because it is, you know, under investigation. But, the problem is, is when you have BB guns and pellet guns that look like real semiautomatic handguns -- this was a debate years ago.

LANIERYou may remember there's been instances all over the country, where, you know, children have been shot because they have toys that look like real guns. And it's just a huge problem that I think that the manufacturers of these BB guns and pellet guns should have something that sets them apart so they don't look exactly like a real gun.

NNAMDIThe reason I brought up the issue of officer training, also, is because it's my understanding that you have reduced the time potential officers spend in the academy from eight months to six months. Why is that? And what concerns do you have about how shortening that time period might affect the ability of new officers to perform in difficult situations like this one?

LANIERWell, it's not that the topics that they're taught have changed any. We haven't revised our curriculum since, I don't know, sometime before I went through the academy, which was, now, almost 21 years ago. It is that we are engaging the students in a more of an adult education learning environment, where they're actually gonna be more engaged. Our academy has always been lecture, repeat, (laugh) take a test, you know, regurgitate what you've heard. And I wanted our academy to become much more interactive at role playing and engaging. So that is really the change.

LANIERAnd I actually added a lot of time to the academy in the past four years. I'm requiring officers to go to extra training, mountain bike and, you know, a lot of the other classes. So I'm very comfortable with the six -- roughly six-month academy that we'll be going to.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Here now is Bob in Prince George's County. Bob, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BOBKojo, I'm calling about what may seem like a trivial matter. The department is known as the Metropolitan Police Department. Why isn't it called the DCPD?

DEBONISThat's a very excellent question I got on the phone.

NNAMDIDo you know of the controversy over trying to call the D.C. Fire Department the DCF (laugh) ...

LANIER(laugh) Don't start a new controversy there, Bob.

NNAMDIOkay, okay. (laugh)

LANIERNow -- all right. The Metropolitan Police Department -- actually, were coming up on out 150 year anniversary in August of this year -- has always been the Metropolitan Police Department since, you know, since its inception. And I think the point is made. You try and change the name of the Metropolitan Police Department is a hard sell.

NNAMDIWell, if the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, Bob, have you ever talked to the Prince George's County executive about changing the county's name to PG? Bob?

BOBI have not. But Metropolitan...

NNAMDIOh, yeah. Prince George's residents hate the -- hate that whole PG thing that's...

LANIERYes, they do.

NNAMDIBut, Bob, thank you very much for your call.

BRIZILLKojo, I had a quick question for Chief Lanier.

NNAMDIPlease go.

BRIZILLUnder the -- in the new administration, who do you report to? Do you report to the mayor or do you report to the deputy mayor for public safety, Paul Quander?

LANIERWell, I try and not -- I try most of the time to work with Paul, and I know Paul very well. But anything significant, I talk directly to the mayor. So sometimes I will communicate with the mayor, the deputy mayor and the city administrator. I try and keep the three of them in the loop on anything having to do with the police department or public safety. But on important issues, I pick up the phone and call the mayor directly.

DEBONISGenerally speaking, how would you describe the differences between the previous mayor and this mayor, how you've worked together?

LANIERYou know, very different personalities, but the way we work together is, you know, it's really more of a personality than a style. I think every mayor has the same concerns when it comes to the police department. But I think in terms of when I would pick up the phone and call the previous mayor or pick up the phone and call this mayor is pretty much the same. It is nice to have the deputy mayor to call to deal with some lesser issues...

DEBONISRight.

LANIER...you know, if there's cross-agency issues, which he's been fabulous at. So I actually, kind of, like having that extra avenue to go to, so I don't feel like I'm burdening the mayor with something that's not necessarily...

DEBONISIs there, particularly with those cross-agency issues you think has been handled particularly well in the last few months?

LANIERWell, you know, there's quite a few things. You know, we had issue with -- that I've been trying to deal with for many years is our -- you know, getting people who are sitting at the retirement board waiting to be retired and cases languishing over there, and so I've tried to keep that on my radar screen and fight that and push that issue for four years. But with all the other things I got going, it's hard for me to stay on it constantly. And he's done that.

NNAMDIOur guest...

BRIZILLCan I ask you...

NNAMDI...is Cathy Lanier. She is the chief of the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. Dorothy Brizill is our guest analyst.

BRIZILLI would like to ask one of those specific questions that requires coordination. DYRS, the District's program for dealing with children who are incarcerated or in the system as it were -- we had problems at New Beginnings. We had problems with juveniles who are going -- running away from a facility we housed them in in North Carolina. Under this administration, DYRS reports to the deputy mayor for children, youth and families...

LANIERMm-hmm.

BRIZILL…BB Otero -- not to the deputy mayor for public safety. How do you, as police chief, knowing that you have this tremendous problem with juvenile crime and a lot of adjudicated youth, you are -- in either group homes or run away from group homes, how was that coordination occurring in the Gray administration?

LANIERWell, most of it, I say -- almost all of it is between Neil Stanley and myself. We talked to each other directly daily, in fact. We have regular conference calls that we do back and forth. Now, I do try and keep both Paul and BB in the loop when any issues, as I'm sure Neal does, but we -- there's not been a need for -- there's not been any issue where we've needed to involve the deputy mayors to iron out an issue or to settle an issue. Neil Stanley has been a great partner since he's been over there in terms of working with MPD.

DEBONISAre you seeing a real difference in how that agency's been treated in the new administration as a public safety agency rather than a human services agency?

LANIERWell, you know, it's -- there was initially. The DYRS was under the deputy mayor for public safety for a short time before it was moved backed out over to BB Otero. Now, I don't see a huge difference. And like I say, it's really comes down to whether Neil and I have that direct daily conversation to make things work. And then when crisis happens, we have to be able to communicate and resolve it amongst ourselves. So -- and that is happening, so I'm...

NNAMDIHere is Monica in Washington, D.C. Monica, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MS. MONICA GREENYes. I'm a huge supporter of Chief Lanier. I'm actually a commissioner in the 4th District. And I absolutely applaud this littering legislation. Specifically, I'm in a direct zone, and we have a lot of littering. And with the littering, we have a lot of littering with, you know, bottles on the ground and just a lot of -- and then at -- sometimes, drug paraphernalia. So I think if anything, it's just an extra resource for the police to attack some of our more serious issues. So I'm just -- I just hope and pray that the police are pretty aggressive in my area because it's really, really bad. So if anything, if any (word?) officers are listening, please be aggressive in my area.

NNAMDIMonica, you're an advisory neighborhood Commissioner Monica Green?

GREENYes, absolutely.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much.

LANIERHi, Monica.

GREENHi. Hey, how's it going?

NNAMDIChief Lanier, violent crimes like the stabbing that occurred in the zoo this week make headlines, but it's property crimes that have been surging this year across the city. What do you think is behind that spike in property crimes and what are you doing about it?

LANIERWell, the big issue right now is theft. I mean, just what you've -- I don't know if you've seen the videos on a couple of the different news stations in the past week, it's -- I mean, theft is up 20 percent. It is twofold. I mean, you've got the problem of the economy and what goes along with that and the thefts. You know, stealing from the office environments, stealing from, you know, shoplifting retail, but now you've got these groups of young people who think it's kind of fun to everybody run in a store and steal a stack of stuff, which has been very challenging for us.

LANIERYou see how quickly it happens. By the time 911's called, they're gone -- and just very a troubling trend. Now, we did have an issue with burglary. And that is now going in the right direction. We've got it going back down. But the single biggest increase in property crime right now is theft.

NNAMDIAnd what can you really do about that?

LANIERIt's tough. It's really tough. I mean, we rely to a certain extent on our partners. And I was talking to a woman as I come in here about what she does with neighborhood watch. But I think in the office environment, people in the office buildings leaving purses hanging on chairs and leaving the office and laptops and things like that, I mean, that accounts for a large number of our thefts as well is not securing valuable personal property in open-office environment and it getting stolen. So that's another kind of a big piece of it.

NNAMDIHere is Tim at the University of Maryland. Tim, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TIMGood afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. And, Mr. Nnamdi, it's a pleasure. My question is for the -- with the Metropolitan Police Department chief for D.C. Instead of instituting new programs to hand out littering citations, A, what is the number or what is the dollar amount that the D.C., District of Columbia is already owed through citations that have been previously handed out and, B, if that number is as big as I think it is, why don't you go get your money? I'll take my question off the air.

NNAMDIWell, I suspect that's not the police department's responsibility, but certainly...

DEBONISSo here's now -- here's a question, Chief. I mean, a lot of people have talked about a parking ticket amnesty. Would you support that sort of thing not just for parking tickets because I know another department handles it...

LANIERMm-hmm.

DEBONIS...but for traffic tickets, and other, you know, citation offenses?

NNAMDIA parking ticket amnesty...

DEBONISAmnesty.

NNAMDI...on what basis?

DEBONISSo basically what would happen -- so they double the price of your ticket after 30 days if you don't pay it. Under an amnesty, they would take that doubling back. You just pay the original price on the ticket.

BRIZILLIt's a way to bring more revenue into the city.

DEBONISAnd you would get revenue that you wouldn't, otherwise, have to run off.

LANIERRight now, the people that aren't paying aren't paying anything, so...

BRIZILLRight.

DEBONISRight.

LANIER...if we can get them to pay the base fine on it -- we do it with the criminal amnesty as well...

DEBONISRight.

LANIER...and open warrants, so it's been discussed. And I know Director (word?), if she's here, would be jumping up and down in support of it. So I think it's a viable way to try and collect some of the revenue that's owed. And it really is a parking issue specifically, because there's not the ability to collect parking fines for our, you know, friends from our neighboring jurisdictions.

BRIZILLKojo, could I ask the chief a question on...

NNAMDINo, actually.

BRIZILLOh.

NNAMDINo, I'm just kidding, Dorothy. (laugh) Go ahead. You can ask her a question.

BRIZILLWe're already almost approaching the first of May. And pretty soon, the kids will be out of school. We'll be in the summer months.

NNAMDIThat was my question.

BRIZILLAnd I'm always concerned about -- we need to plan in winter for summer...

LANIERMm-hmm.

BRIZILL...you know, as Kojo has indicated, you know, robberies are up. We know...

LANIERNo, robberies are down.

NNAMDIBurglaries.

BRIZILLBurglaries, I'm sorry. Burglaries are...

LANIER(laugh) Burglaries are up, robberies are down.

BRIZILLRight. And we've had this horrific incident on this past Monday at the National Zoo. And we have this ongoing problem on Metro with gangs of kids just roaming around, you know, preying upon people. In the Gray administration, what are you, Paul Quander, Neil Stanley, BB Otero doing right now...

LANIERMm-hmm.

BRIZILL...in terms of programs and initiatives to prepare for the warm weather?

NNAMDIAnd BB Otero...

DEBONISCan I...

NNAMDI...is one of the guests of this show next week, so I'd ask her about that.

DEBONISDo you mind -- if I could put a finer point on Dorothy's question, we're gonna have 10,000 fewer kids in the summer jobs program this year...

LANIERRight.

DEBONIS...versus last year. And now, everyone says, well, those kids are just gonna be up to no good. Is there a specific plan for changing policing during that time, during that summer jobs period when we're expecting to have more kids that aren't in that program?

LANIEROkay. Yes, we actually have been working on our summer strategy. And ironically, today at 3:30 is my kickoff for my summer strategy internally with my team. But we do a couple of things and specifically to deal with the young people, to deal with our juveniles is we -- obviously, we have about 600 kids we take to Camp Brown and trying to get, you know, the younger kids off to camp. We have a program called STARS. That's for teenagers to keep them engaged all summer. We have a Girls TimeOut to keep girls engaged. So we're gonna try -- and we have a Junior Police Academy program where we're bringing in some kids for that. So we're trying to engage as many of those kids in positive activities as possible.

LANIERIn addition to that, we have our Summer of Safety where we try and coordinate across all the government agencies -- what are different safe supervise defense that our going on this summer and then we give a hotline where kids can call or text and get information. So we're trying to do all of -- what we can in the police department to keep these kids...

DEBONISThey've talked to -- I mean, DOES, you know, they've got kids who applied for summer jobs and aren't gonna be getting them. Are you gonna get that list of the kids who didn't get summer jobs and reach out to them specifically?

LANIERNo. No. And I think really more specifically for me is I rely on my school resource officers who are very in touch with the kids they interact with in the school system every day, and I rely on my beat officers and my youth officers to help me identify the kids that are most in need of safe, supervised activities over the summer. Those are the kids that I want to reach out to, not just the kid that wants a summer job, because a lot of them do. I want the kid that needs safe, supervised activities to give them some structure.

NNAMDIWe're running out of time, very quickly, but a judge this week denied a request to force authorities to search a Virginia landfill for the remains of Latisha Frazier, who disappeared last summer, whose body is believed to have been dumped in the trash. I do understand that this would be a multimillion-dollar search, but what I did not realize before is that the judge said that there was insufficient information that Frazier's body was in the landfill to justify the million -- the multimillion-dollar search. Comment on that (unintelligible)...

LANIERYeah. It really had nothing to do with the money. It really is a matter of -- we weren't even aware that she had been murdered for six months after she disappeared. And then we're relying on the memory of what day possibly her body was placed in a trash container. We traced that trash container from that day to that landfill. And if that memory was off by one day on either side, the area which we were going to try and search, which is about 80 feet down in the landfill and about four acres of area just to get to the search area, would have been wrong. So the likelihood of recovery was extremely small.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's just about all the time we have -- oh, except for this. "Chicago Code," Jennifer Beals, have you watched that television show?

LANIERMy mother watches it religiously. I have not yet seen it.

NNAMDIJennifer Beals is a female police chief in a big city of approximately your own age. You weren't paid a consulting fee (laugh) by the producers of this television show or anything? You weren't consulted?

LANIERNot at all.

NNAMDIAnd you haven't watched it?

DEBONIS(unintelligible) actually may owe you a little bit of money, too, if that's the case. (laugh)

NNAMDIWhat does your mom tell you about it?

LANIERShe loves it. Oh, my mom watches all police shows, so she likes them all. But she loves it.

NNAMDIWell, I've liked Jennifer Beals ever since "Devil in a Blue Dress," but that's a whole another story altogether. (laugh) Cathy Lanier, thank you for joining us.

LANIERThanks for having me.

NNAMDICathy Lanier is chief of the Metropolitan Police Department in the District of Columbia. Our guest analyst, Mike DeBonis, a reporter of The Washington Post, and Dorothy Brizill, executive director of DCWatch, an online magazine that covers D.C. politics. We take your calls at 800-433-8850. Gentlemen, the ongoing investigation of what some people call Sulaimon gate is continuing, but it would appear now that the people who are likely to testify won't include a couple of the key people in this situation. It's my understanding that the elusive Howard Brooks is not likely to be testifying. He has stood on his Fifth Amendment rights of avoiding self-incrimination in that situation. What's going on?

DEBONISWell, that tells you a lot, doesn't it, Kojo? He's admitting his right to -- against self-incrimination. And as much as his lawyer, Glenn Ivey, the former Prince George's state's attorney, would like us to not draw any conclusions from that fact, well, I think we can draw the conclusions from the fact that he would implicate himself in illegal activity where he -- to testify under oath. So, that certainly raises, you know, the question that there was some sort of illegal activity that went on here.

NNAMDIThe mayor's friend and former campaign chair Lorraine Green is still scheduled to testify some time later in May. What are you anticipating, Dorothy Brizill?

BRIZILLWell, you know, the problem arises because so many of these people that Mary Cheh wants to subpoena are not D.C. government employees. When you're a D.C. government employee, you cannot only issue with a subpoena, but, you know, you have a, you know...

DEBONISOr you know where to find them, for one thing.

BRIZILLWell, yeah. I'm not sure what's gonna happen with this investigation. It -- I'm not sure what its real focus is. You know, it says it's looking at executive hires, but, you know, the council's hands are not very clean on this matter itself. You know, the council has a very old boy network of hiring people. There is tremendous nepotism on the council. There's tremendous use of staff on the council for personal errands and, you know, and other things. So I'm not sure this is an investigation the council has launched that's really gonna go anywhere, and I'm not sure of any particular laws have been particularly violated.

DEBONISWell, I mean, at the end of the day, the council, the D.C. council can't charge anyone with a crime. Only the U.S. attorney can do that, and they're gonna have the final word. The fact that the -- that, you know, a lot of these people have very good lawyers, one of them now is invoking a constitutional right against self-incrimination, we do need to believe that they're taking this quite seriously and we may actually hear something, yeah.

NNAMDIAnd the former candidate, Sulaimon Brown, around whom this controversy swirls, who said he was offered and accepted cash from officials in the Gray campaign has been reportedly cooperating with the U.S. Attorney's Office?

DEBONISOh, yes.

NNAMDIOkay. So we'll see what happens there. Joining us in studio now is Christopher Barclay. He is president of the Montgomery County Board of Education. Christopher Barclay, thank you so much for joining us.

MR. CHRISTOPHER BARCLAYThank you for having me.

NNAMDIWe spent a couple of weeks following every moment of the special election here in Washington, D.C., but Montgomery County may have made the biggest hire of the week this week...

BARCLAYI think so.

NNAMDI...tapping Joshua Starr of the Stamford, Conn., school system to be the county's new superintendent. What did you, members of the school board like about Starr and what are you hoping he'll bring to Montgomery County?

BARCLAYOh, we have a list of things we like about Dr. Starr. Dr. Starr did excellent work in Stamford, Conn. He is a game-changer in this way. He is somebody who really was able to go into Stamford, which had a very interesting demographics, similar to Montgomery County. So it's very diverse, large African-American population, pretty decent Latino population. One of the things they didn't have is they didn't have a clear curriculum, and they didn't have clarity on what their goals were. And I think that Dr. Starr has done a great deal of work in consolidating their curriculum, getting them down to confined reading programs and different things, and that way, he's really focused on achievement.

BARCLAYI love the work that he's doing in talking about achievement, in talking about student-centered work and really looking at how to make things better in a system that looks very similar to ours, much smaller, but very similar in terms of demographics, so we're really excited.

NNAMDIIf you have children in Montgomery County public schools or just an interest in Montgomery County education and maybe comparing it to other jurisdictions, call us, 800-433-8850. We're talking with Christopher Barclay, president of the Montgomery County Board of Education. You can also send us a tweet @kojoshow, or an email to kojo@wamu.org. Jerry Weast hung around for more than a decade...

BARCLAYYes, he had.

NNAMDI...in the District. You know, we like to go through our new school's chief every two or three years. (laugh) What are your expectations for this hire as far as staying power is concerned, and has Jerry Weast made expectations in Montgomery County unrealistic by sticking around for so long?

BARCLAYNot unrealistic. Let me say that we are so glad that Dr. Weast was able to stick with us for 12 years. It's made a real difference, and I think it had a lot to do with the successes that we have mostly because he had the staying power and he had the consistency. So one having aboard that was pushing a vision that said, we really wanna make sure that we have 80 percent of our students college or career-ready by 2014, and sticking with that goal and not diverging from it, not kind of falling off into other distractions makes a huge difference.

BARCLAYAnd having a superintendent here for 12 years who really focused on race and focused on achievement, it's made a huge difference in the county. And I will say, we don't expect that any superintendent will stay 12 years. It would be wonderful, but, you know, saying that you're gonna have three terms, you don't really know.

DEBONISLet's -- well, we should point out that Mr. Starr is a young guy. He's 41.

BARCLAYHe has three children.

DEBONISHe has three children.

BARCLAYTwo will be immediately in the school system, so we're excited about that. So he has an investment in a different kind of way.

DEBONISYeah. He -- right. And, I mean, was that -- was youth...

NNAMDIAnd Michelle Rhee had children in D.C. schools, too, so...

BARCLAYThat is true.

DEBONIS(unintelligible)

NNAMDIStill does, as a matter of fact.

BARCLAYRight.

DEBONISBut the -- were you -- was the board looking for someone younger, someone with energy? Is that really something that will point into the decision?

BARCLAYAge was not a factor. Energy, of course, is a factor because it's a difficult job. I mean, it really is a 24/7 job. It is amazing to think of one county with nearly a million residents, 144,000 students, 200 schools, you know, all the things that we have going on in the county, it's very demanding. So you do have to think does somebody have the energy to do this job and the staying power. But, you know, how do you predict when you're hiring somebody, are they gonna last more than their first term or their second term or even make it through the first term?

BARCLAYWhat you really look at is what are the characteristics that we want in a candidate, how does this person match them if they do, and then how are they gonna help us go forward. Because what we were looking for was not somebody who was gonna just completely reform the system, but somebody who was gonna take the good things that we're doing and make them even better.

BRIZILLCan I ask you a question? Did it concern the board that Mr. Starr was coming from a school system that was a tenth of the size of Montgomery County? And how close are you to negotiating a contract with him?

BARCLAYWell, question number one, it concerns us the size of all of the candidates. Realistically, we looked at, what, close to 30 resumes, I guess? And there were many that were from small school systems. Really, the issue was, does the candidate have the skill sets that we need to lead the system? I mean, one of the things that was important to us was, in fact, Dr. Starr had experience in New York. So he had experience in a large school system, and that made a real difference for us.

NNAMDIOn top of your superintendent search, you have been part of a knockdown drag-out fight in the county over funding. We spoke with County Council President Valerie Ervin last month. She told us there's a chasm -- that's the word she used -- a chasm that exists between school employees and all of the other county employees, that too many other public employees are being asked to make sacrifices while the school system sucks up all the money.

BARCLAYWell, the school system doesn't suck up all the money. I mean, obviously, when you have 144,000 students and you have, you know, a standard of excellence that we do have, we're going to take a good portion of the budget. So, you know, some folks are saying that it's 57 percent of the budget. But if you look, you know, when it comes to local revenue, our numbers have shrunk from as high as 52 percent of local revenue, down to now close to 43 percent of the local revenue that's used on the school. So I think there's a real difference in how the school system treats our employees and how we work with our employees than what happens in the county.

DEBONISGiven the fact that the school board and the school system have been at odds with the county council and the county executive, did Ike Leggett or Valerie Ervin or any of the other council members have input on this decision to hire Mr. Starr?

BARCLAYIn terms of the superintendent search?

DEBONISYeah.

BARCLAYWell, we did focus groups and we definitely wanted the opinions and we wanted to know the thoughts of the county executive and our council members and our delegations. But in terms of the decision on the particular candidates, no. It was really the decision of the Board of Ed. We had a panel of community members who participated in interviewing our finalist, but that feedback went back to the board. It wasn't ranking candidates or anything like that. It was just letting us know, what are the questions you're interested in us digging deeper into? So, you know.

NNAMDIHere is Suma (sp?) in Silver Spring, Md. Suma, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SUMAYeah. Thank you very much, Kojo. I'm trying to find out. I used to live in Montgomery County...

BARCLAYI'm not hearing anything.

NNAMDIOh, I'm sorry. He...

BARCLAYI'm not having headphones.

NNAMDISuma, can you start over again now that Christopher has his headphones on?

SUMAOh, okay. Good. I said I used to live in Montgomery County, and I moved to PG County at the time, which I regret, to some extent. But I'm coming back to Montgomery County. I still own property there. But my main criteria for moving back is for good school for my kids. And I know however good the school system here is, there is nothing in localities that perform much better than others. My question is, how does one determine the best school, you know, especially for high school, the best schools within the specific county? In this case Montgomery County, which has been my main criteria as to where I'll move.

NNAMDIIn case Christopher Barclay didn't hear the first part, he's thinking of moving back to Montgomery County...

BARCLAYWe appreciate that.

NNAMDI...and he's looking, I guess -- so if you find...

DEBONISRushern Baker, if you're out there, you can call and convince him to stay.

NNAMDISo, wait. Suma is saying that if Christopher Barclay is head of the school board, he can tell you where the best high school is, and you're probably likely to try to buy a home near to that high school? Is that what you're suggesting?

BARCLAYWe have 25 great high schools.

NNAMDIOkay. Well, you got to give this man a finder's fee when he finds...

DEBONISWell, I should just say the county has some data on various schools on your website...

BARCLAYThe county does. If you look at the county website, you will see all of the data on our schools. We have a thing called Schools at a Glance that really will allow you to see what schools, what neighborhoods are -- what neighborhoods go to what schools. And also you really will be able to see if your children are not in high school, what schools matriculate up to the high schools and you can look scores and MSAs and things like that and high school graduation rates. So you could get that information online.

BRIZILLIn terms of Mr. Starr, has the board or county leadership given him sort of like a checklist in terms of top three issues you want him to address right away? You know, in the District of Columbia, they throw around this term reform. They want people to reform the school system and what have you. You know, Montgomery County schools are in a pretty good place, very good place, especially both in the region and nationally. In terms of your wish list or the wish list that has been imparted to him from the school board, what are those top three issues you want him to address?

BARCLAYWell, I don't know that we have a list of three things, but I think that we have a big aspiration. As I said earlier, the biggest thing that we're concerned about is how do we get 80 percent of our students college- or career-ready by 2014? I know that's an aspiration, but the other piece of that is really how do we align the good things that we're doing to make sure that we have more and more students walking across the stage with a diploma that's meaningful? So, right now, Montgomery County, one of the things that really -- we're really proud of is our graduation rate.

BARCLAYSo, overall, our graduation rate is fantastic, probably in the high 80s. And -- but unfortunately for African-American men, for example, it's about 65 percent. So, personally, I have a real concern about that, and obviously we'll do a lot of work on looking at how to improve that. But as you said, we have a really good school system. So it's really not gonna be about reform.

NNAMDIA number of lawmakers in Montgomery County and around Maryland have voiced complaints about the state's maintenance of effort law, a law that's gotten Montgomery County in legal trouble before. Briefly explain for our listeners what that is and what your opinion is about it and what you would change if you could.

BARCLAYWell...

DEBONISBriefly explain on the radio? Okay.

BARCLAYOh, no, no. Thanks, Kojo. Let me try and give my lay answer. Maintenance of effort basically says that each county has an obligation to ensure that they fund the schools at the same per-pupil level as they did the year previous.

NNAMDIPretty good. Pretty good. That's correct.

BARCLAYOkay?

NNAMDIYes.

BARCLAYThat is the basics. Now here's the issue that comes up. One, the -- we need to make sure that, in fact, it's a requirement, okay? It's not an option. And unfortunately, our county has made a really horrific decision to step back. The county executive said, look, we cannot afford to fund the school's MOE this year, so we're not going to do it. Okay, I can understand that. But there's a requirement in the law that says if you cannot do that, you have to get a waiver. Well, as of yesterday, we got news from the county council and our county executive that said, you know what? We're not even gonna go for that waiver.

NNAMDIWhich would mean that they can -- have to pay a fine of 26 million to $29 million.

BARCLAYYes, sir. And the concern is, the fine doesn't go to the county. The fine goes to the school system. So now we said, one time, we're not gonna fund you at the level that you need per pupil. We're gonna fund you less. Then they're saying, oh, by the way, we're not gonna take the ride up the Beltway and go to Baltimore and appeal to the State Board of Elections to get the $29 million or forego the $29 million penalty.

NNAMDISo it comes out of your budget.

BARCLAYSo it comes out of my budget. And I'm basically saying that we're being cost $1 million a mile that they wouldn't drive up to Baltimore to do something about this and to appeal for a waiver.

DEBONISSo here's the big question. Is this gonna end up in court again? Is the board prepared to sue the county, like it was prepared to do last year?

BARCLAYIt's not about going to court. Now we do have a declaratory ruling. We have asked for a declaratory ruling from the state board. And what we're doing is we're asking three essential questions. Question one: Is maintenance of effort required? We believe yes. Question two: If, in fact, you can't make maintenance of effort, should you get a waiver? Should you apply for a waiver? Yes. We believe so you should. Question number three: If, in fact, you cannot make maintenance of effort, and if your county executive puts forth a budget that, in fact, is below maintenance of effort, does the county council then have the ability to even go below that? We believe not. We believe in the article. It clearly says that they cannot. They have to -- in the Education Article.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's about all the time we have. Christopher Barclay is president of the Montgomery County Board of Education. Thank you so much for joining us.

BARCLAYThank you for having me.

NNAMDIWe got a tweet from Brendan Sweeney, our producer, saying that President Clinton was deposed at Skadden Arps across the street from the White House...

DEBONISIt's where Bob Bennett worked at the time. That was his lawyer's office.

NNAMDI...on New York Avenue. We also got a tweet from Tom Sherwood, asking Chief Lanier if he could have a police escort from Reagan National when he gets back from Florida. I'm afraid the chief has left the building. Mike DeBonis...

DEBONISI'll pick you up, Tom.

NNAMDI...is our guest analyst. He's a reporter at The Washington Post. DeBonis, always a pleasure.

DEBONISThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIDorothy Brizill is our guest analyst. She's executive director of DCWatch, an online magazine that covers city politics in Washington. Dorothy, always a pleasure also.

BRIZILLThank you.

NNAMDIAnd thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.