MR. KOJO NNAMDIThey call it "K2" or "Spice" and until recently, it was a popular way to get a legal high. Synthetic marijuana, which consists of leaves sprayed with various chemicals, is labeled as herbal incense by manufacturers and often smoked by purchasers. Undetectable in drug tests, members of the military have been expelled from their academies for using it and fake pot could also be popular among other folks who are routinely tested.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIAfter reports from hospitals, poison control centers and law enforcement, the drug enforcement administration recently issued an emergency ban on the chemicals typically found in synthetic marijuana so that its effects could be studied and further controls established. We invited the DEA to join our conversation, but the agency declined an in-studio.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIWe have James Sanborn, who is a reporter for the Marine Corps Times. He's been following synthetic pot and the way it's affected the military. James Sanborn, thank you so much for joining us.

MR. JAMES SANBORNThank you for having me.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Dr. Matthew Johnson. He is a pyschopharmacologist and professor at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine who studies drugs of abuse. Dr. Johnson, thank you for joining us.

DR. MATTHEW JOHNSONYou're welcome, thanks.

NNAMDILet me start with you. It follows that since these chemicals are synthetic, someone must have synthesized them. So where does synthetic marijuana come from?

JOHNSONReally interesting story. They started with a national institute on drug abuse funded scientists coming up with molecular probes for the cannabinoid system in the brain. That's where marijuana normally works. And there's a lot of, you know, medical interest. There's a lot of interest over, you know, addressing the problems associated with cannabis abuse. So it was a NIDA-NIH funded researcher who developed dozens and dozens of this synthetic cannabinoid back in the 1990s mostly.

NNAMDIAnd he developed them for the purpose of what again?

JOHNSONStudying the brain. So this is very basic research so probes that hit the cannabinoid system are going to be relevant for understanding the functions of endogenous cannabinoid. We have chemicals like that in our brains naturally, so understanding that, also understanding the abuse of cannabis and potential medical effects. There's a lot of disorders for which cannabinoids are, you know, pose in other (unintelligible) .

NNAMDIHow does it get from research lab to herbal incense sold across the counter?

JOHNSONWhat makes everything interesting these days? The Internet. The Internet has sped this entire thing up. Folks mining the literature, the scientific literature, the stuff that 15 years ago only folks, you know, with university access with a medical library would have access to.

JOHNSONAnyone in the world can have access to. You find some of these synthetic, you know, formulas and depending on how difficult or easy it may be, folks anywhere around, someone in a basement in a Third-World country could be cooking these things up.

NNAMDIWell, Jeremy Essig heard about it. He joins us by telephone. Jeremy Essig tried synthetic pot as research for a column in the Columbian-Missourian newspaper. Jeremy Essig, thank you so much for joining us.

MR. JEREMY ESSIGThank you for having me.

NNAMDIYou are, by profession, a comedian and writer. Why did you decide to -- you wrote in your column that you didn't even really like marijuana. What inspired you to try synthetic pot?

ESSIGWell, at the time, I was reporting down in the state capital of Missouri and the issue had come up and there just seemed to be a lot of conjecture about the effects or what was behind it so I thought to either aid reporting or, for any other various reasons, I thought I would try the substance so I had a better understanding of what it actually was.

NNAMDIWhat was the experience actually like?

ESSIGIt was very similar to a marijuana high in the sense of a certain lethargy that came over me, a certain calm. But it also promoted a very strong form of depression, which I had not previously experienced with marijuana.

NNAMDILet me ask any of our listeners. Have you tried synthetic marijuana? Call us at 800-433-8850. Tell us what the effects you felt are. 800-433-8850 or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. James Sanborn, you've talked with the family of a Marine who had been using what's known as Spice. How did it affect him?

SANBORNWell, I mean, the effects were actually pretty severe. And one interesting point I'd like to raise is that it seems like because these herbal blends aren't controlled. It affects different people differently or different blends seem to affect different people differently. In some cases, that's extreme like this Marine you mentioned.

SANBORNYou know, his dad said no one knew what was wrong with him, but he had lost 20 to 25 pounds in about a month and started to have these repetitive anxiety attacks that would land him in the emergency room. And one day, I guess someone else in his family had gone to his dad after a recent trip to the ER and said, you know, I think he was smoking pot.

SANBORNSo the father went through his bag, found one of these herbal blends and, you know, sort of confronted his son about it, told the doctors about it. And the doctor said, you know that, They don't really know what the effects of these are, but, you know, this weight loss, these anxiety attacks can have secondary effects. It can potentially be life-threatening.

NNAMDIIf it doesn't show up in drug tests -- in the case of the Marine, obviously there were symptoms that he had that his father was clearly concerned about. But if it doesn't show up in drug tests, either you or Dr. Johnson can tell me, how are users typically found out?

JOHNSONThey probably aren't being found out. Only when there's a problem, which I would guess would be for a small number of the users. There's probably a huge market out there and we don't have any really good data on how many people are using it. I mean, reports are that hemp-shop sales have skyrocketed, the folks that sell this stuff.

NNAMDIAs a result of it, as I said, we've invited callers to join us. I think a few callers are calling about it. Have you tried the synthetic pot? What was its affect on you? 800-433-8850. Dr. Johnson, would the reaction of the Marine that we just talked about be typical, you think, for someone on synthetic cannabinoids?

JOHNSONThat's very difficult. That's impossible to really answer because something that James eluded to, there are many, many chemicals that can -- of these synthetic cannabinoids that can be a component of these herbal mixtures so it completely depends on what chemicals are in there. There's wide variation across, you know, in terms of their affinity and potency for the same receptor that marijuana hits.

JOHNSONSo we really have no idea. We don't really know the particular drug that's being used in any particular case.

NNAMDIJeremy Essig, did you experience anything like the symptoms that we just described that Marine having, the anxiety, the hyperventilation, that kind of problem?

ESSIGI didn't. Certainly not hyperventilation. There was maybe some anxiety, but nothing residual, as in -- like, that lasted past the two to three hour, for lack of a better term, trip on the substance.

NNAMDIHere is Kate, in College Park, Md. Kate, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KATEHi, I was just calling because I've actually also used Spice and a friend of mine used it pretty habitually over the last year before they started putting bans on it because his job required testing. And, you know, I've also -- we're both familiar with, you know, the marijuana as well and we did not experience anxiety. It was -- we basically equated it to, like, really good strain of marijuana.

KATEThe only difference we really noticed was that the longevity of that high was not there, but basically we felt it was the same and his prolonged use hasn't -- you know, we definitely didn't hyperventilate. But also, you know, that kind of reaction happens with normal pot as well. I've heard of people smoking marijuana and hyperventilating, freaking out like that. So it doesn't sound weird that someone else would respond to the fakeness that way, too.

NNAMDIBut you're saying that the effect did not seem to last as long as the effect of marijuana would. The high, so to speak, didn't last as long?

KATENo, no, not at all. Like, we were probably sitting there for about an hour and then it was, you know, let's move on to the next thing. Like, it was when you smoked a real -- the same amount of real pot, you're basically sitting there, you know, watching a whole movie totally zoned out, you know.

NNAMDIDr. Johnson, could that be because there could be a difference in the chemical sprayed on it from one version of the product to another?

JOHNSONAbsolutely. In fact, very recently a colleague at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences has found that there's variation even within a single package of this type of thing. Because they're spraying it on in haphazard way many times. So across varieties, across packages of the same variety, even within the same variety multiple chemicals and they could differ from, you know, one pipe full to the next pipe full.

NNAMDIHow do you buy the stuff, Jeremy Essig? We can only assume that one reason the chemical ban was put in place by the DEA is that packets of spice are very clearly labeled as well as incense and they say not for human consumption. So vendors of stuff like Spice have to, I guess, talk about it very carefully. Jeremy Essig, what was your experience?

ESSIGI was -- in fact it's funny. It was labeled as not for any kind of human ingestion, yet when I bought it, the gentleman I bought it from said I needed an incense burner. And I kind of refused and he said, no, no, no, you need this. And he pulled out what would be commonly termed a one hitter, and he referred to that as an incense burner. And my question at the time, I don't know how you would just burn something in there. It was something that would require someone to inhale up the other end.

ESSIGSo while it was marked as to not for consumption, it was clearly sold with something that would indicate consumption would be required.

NNAMDIJames Sanborn, we found that a number of people in military academies have been expelled for this use. How were they generally discovered?

SANBORNWell, you know, I know there were some students at the Naval Academy, but...

NNAMDIYeah.

SANBORN...but the one case that we covered that pertains to the Marine Corps were two young Marines who were just caught in the room. So again, you know, we raised this point that you can't necessarily test for it, or couldn't at the time. And so they were caught because someone, you know, smelled smoke and you can't smoke even cigarettes in the barracks. So they were caught that way.

NNAMDIAnd they discovered what it was they were smoking.

SANBORNYeah. And at first, I guess this Marine thought that they would just be, you know, punished for smoking in the barracks, which is an offense, but a minor offense, and ended up being kicked out.

NNAMDIAnd they ended up being kicked out because when it was discovered that they were smoking something that was not banned, why -- what was the basis on which they were kicked out?

SANBORNWell, you know, the Marine Corps doesn't have an overarching policy specifically targeting Spice. But what they say is that it's banned under what's called a Secretary of the Navy Instruction. So this applies to the entire department of the Navy, including the Marine Corps, and that specifically says you can't use any kind of drug of any sort for the express purpose of, you know, getting high essentially.

NNAMDIKate, thank you very much for you call. Speaking of testing, here is John in Herndon, Va. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOHNHi. I just wanted to call and clarify one thing. I work for (word?) Drug and Alcohol Testing Company here in Herndon, Va. We actually do have a test that tests for two of the chemical compounds in K2, JWH018 and JWH073. Just like a normal drug test, that can be -- those tests can be confirmed up to 72 hours after ingestion.

NNAMDISo there is a test. But Dr. Johnson, here's where it gets complicated. There are literally hundreds of substances that imitate marijuana's active chemical commonly known as THC. With that many alternatives out there, this is both for you and James Sanborn, do you think, well, Marines, Army members, or anyone else who are routinely tested for drugs will just move on to the next thing?

JOHNSONAnd it's -- yes. And I think it's actually gonna be driven more by the behavior of the folks selling it. So no one who's smoking this stuff now really knows. I mean, no one -- unless they have a GC mass spec machine in their basement, they're not analyzing the content of this stuff. So what we actually saw in Europe after 2008 when it was identified, this is not just a concoction of regular herbs, this is synthetic stuff in there.

JOHNSONThey -- Germany, for example, outlawed the main constituent. The next thing you knew, the packages on the shelves had the other -- had JWH073 instead of 18 in there. And so that's an example with one. The U.S. is now outlawing five. There are hundreds of these things out there.

NNAMDIThat can be added and sprayed. James Sanborn?

SANBORNWell, yeah. I mean, that's really gonna be a constant challenge. You know, there is a test now that the Air Force is using to try and, you know, screen for some of these drugs. The Marine Corps is looking at doing a similar thing. But again, you know, they have to keep up, as you said, as people move onto the next drug. And so, what they're doing is, you know, going out, buying new blends and testing those and trying to add that to sort of their repertoire. But it's gonna be difficult to keep up with that.

NNAMDIAs a result of which we have another question for our listeners. Do you think bans like the one imposed on synthetic pot are effective? Does prohibition really work in a situation like this? 800-433-8850. We've got to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation of synthetic marijuana. If you have already called, stay on the line. If the lines are busy, then shoot an e-mail to kojo@wamu.org, a tweet @kojoshow, or go to our website, kojoshow.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation on synthetic marijuana with Dr. Matthew Johnson. He's a psychopharmacologist and professor at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. He studies drugs of abuse. Also joining us in studio is James Sanborn. He's a reporter for the Marine Corps Times. He's been following synthetic pot and the way it's affected the military. Joining us by telephone is Jeremy Essig. He is a comedian and writer, but he tried synthetic pot as research for a column in the Columbia Missourian Newspaper.

NNAMDIDr. Johnson, what do you say to people who decide that because it has a high or a sensation similar to marijuana that it's then okay to try it based on how much or how little we know about this?

JOHNSONI'd really caution folks, you know, just because the effect seems similar to marijuana in many cases, not to assume that the safety profile is similar to that of marijuana. Now, there can certainly be harms of marijuana use, but we know a lot of marijuana. It's been used for thousands of years, heavily in this culture for 40 plus years. You know, certain things we do know. No one's ever physically overdosed on the drug.

JOHNSONWe don't really know that's not possible for one of these synthetics cannabinoids. You know, there can be all kinds of -- there can be psychological acute consequences. There can be dependence, withdrawal, there can be an exacerbation potentially of any of those domains with these other synthetic cannabinoids, and physical. I mean, people are reporting seizure-like activity. a lot of anxiety reactions. What's really difficult is that marijuana itself will cause a lot of these reactions.

JOHNSONTypically, in more novice users, those that aren't used to it. And I think a lot of the folks trying these things are those that maybe used pot back in college, or they're now getting tested, and they're going out and trying this stuff, and they have one of these reactions. It's really difficult to tell if this is marijuana-like activity, or something above and beyond. It looks like there's something above and beyond, and there's plenty of reason to think that that's certainly a possibility. This really is different pharmacologically, including the dangers.

NNAMDILet's talk to some more people who tried it who have called on the phone. Here is Brian in Falls Church, Va. Brian, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BRIANHi, Kojo. Long-time listener, first-time caller.

NNAMDIThanks.

BRIANI wanted to respond. I had also tried K2 before, and I thought it was very similar to a marijuana high, only more lucid. But I also wanted to respond to your question about whether or the bans on these sorts of substances are effective because I think that what the legislature is trying to ban here is really the populaces desire to alter its consciousness in one form or another. And we have, you know, socially acceptable ways to do that with alcohol and things like that, but I think that all our war on drugs has succeeded in doing is filling up our prisons with non-violent offenders.

BRIANSo if people want to, you know, spend more time trying to ban substances like K2, I think we're always just gonna find another substance to go to. I don't really see an end to anything like that.

NNAMDIThe legislature and the commonwealth of Virginia did ban K2, otherwise known as Spice. Jeremy Essig, as somebody who has tried this for the article for the Columbia Missourian, how do you feel about the ban?

ESSIGI would actually somewhat agree with your -- the last call there, and something that the doctor had said, is that there's so many versions of these chemicals, as you in turn ban one, I think people are just gonna turn to another. I mean, it strikes me fairly similarly to, I mean, what they did in baseball for a long time, which is when they banned steroids, they just kept finding new chemicals that would mimic steroid activity. And you're never -- this just seems to me as a never-ending process of, well, if you're gonna ban this, then we'll find this.

ESSIGI mean, as someone who grew up in a small town, I mean, if you ban anything, people -- I still know people who, you know, would find ways to get high huffing, you know, household cleaners. It just seems to be a never-ending process.

NNAMDIWell, the DEA we mentioned has banned it, and the commonwealth of Virginia, but James Sanborn, if you want to be really pessimistic about it, people will say, look -- as one of our callers said, if someone wants to get high, they'll find a way. How do you expect organizations like the Marines to adapt to this given the fact that there can be various different mixtures of it that will make testing difficult?

SANBORNWell, you know, I mean, I -- these are sort of -- I agree with the assertion that it's not really something you can necessarily stamp out entirely. You know, in the -- the military is just like any other community and, you know, people will find a way to do it and there will always be that minority that will, and you know, I think that's something they're trying to grapple with, and I don't -- I don't think I have an answer. I don't think they have an answer yet.

NNAMDII suspect that they feel that by banning it, you at least alert people to the possible dangers of it as the doctor...

SANBORNWell, absolutely. I mean, I think you can at least, you know, direct people away from it. And that's been sort of one critique among people who have gotten caught in the past was, you know, well, I didn't necessarily know. I thought it was legal to civilians, to I thought it was okay for us.

NNAMDIHere is John in Fredericksburg, Va. As we know, a lot of stuff that's legal is not necessarily good for you. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOHNHi. How you doing?

NNAMDII'm doing well.

JOHNKojo, I've been a listener for a long time.

NNAMDIThanks.

JOHNAnyhow, I was coming home from college back to San Marcos, Texas, and I was bored. My parents were working. And I was watching CNN, saw the story, and I said, you know, what the hell's the big deal about this? And you know what I told myself curiosity is gonna kill me. Well, I thought that it nearly would kill me that day because I went to one of those tobacco hut places and they sold it to me and they sold me a pipe, you know, and a filter, and all this.

JOHNI tried it, and by God, I don't know if I was destined to get a fever that day, or get so horribly sick, but as soon as I tried it, it came -- I became nauseous. It got me that high. I was like, all right, this is cool. But like ten minutes later, you know, I became nauseous. And I've never tried any drugs. Seriously, I've been scared of trying drugs. But I tried it and I'm never gonna use it again. I thought I needed to go to the emergency room. I was all by myself. I could not drive. I was so disoriented. And well, I think people should try things just once, and I don't know.

NNAMDIBut you haven't -- you hadn't tried drugs before, and this was something you were trying obviously because it was legal. Have you drunk alcohol? Did you have any bad reactions to that?

JOHNOh, yeah, I drink alcohol. I mean, more accepted thing, you know, and it's social. But, you know, they're starting to come down on this spice thing, and you see the news, so I tried it. What's the big deal about this? It's just like that Four Loco drink, you know, that energy and alcohol drink. I went and tried that, too. Didn't like it, either.

NNAMDIOkay. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. Josh in Manassas, Va. also tried it. Josh, what was the affect it had on you?

JOSHWell, I found the effects -- I guess I should just come out and say I'm a veteran marijuana smoker. And I found the effect to be very similar to potent marijuana. And, of course, you've talked about some of the psychological aspects of that. But the most notable thing to me was how much harsher it was on the throat and the lungs. I like to sing and play music in my spare time, and I found that after smoking, like, one bowl of this stuff, like, my upper register was gone.

JOSHIt was basically the equivalent of sitting in a smoky bar all night long after smoking one bowl and much just physically harsher than marijuana. And...

NNAMDIDr. Johnson, once again, underscoring the fact that there is so much we don't know about this.

JOHNSONYeah. I mean, the pulmonary aspect alone. I mean, we know -- again, we know certain things about marijuana. There's an increased incident of upper respiratory illness, colds, among the very heavy users of cannabis. We know it's nothing like tobacco in terms of the, you know, morbid consequences, hundreds of thousands of folks dying from tobacco smoke a year. We know nothing about what happens with these synthetic cannabinoids mixed with other stuff.

JOHNSONNo regulation at all, no FDA regulation. I mean, in addition to these things, who knows what else they're putting -- other random chemicals. We have no idea, and, you know, the affects of that on upper respiratory system. And what's really difficult is we're not in really a position to do really great research, because even in surveys, studying this stuff, we don't know what they really use. Like, we don't know what this gentleman really smoked.

NNAMDIOn to Nathan in Fredericksburg, Va. Nathan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

NATHANHi. How you doing?

NNAMDII'm well.

NATHANI've tried the fake pot, and the first experience -- the gentleman that sold it to me actually sold it to me with rolling papers, as it says not for human consumption on it. But the only thing that I found was that it -- it does make you lethargic, but it doesn't actually do anything for your mind as it would with real marijuana. And I also noticed some kind of effect almost comparable with a hangover the next day after I smoked it and definitely the upper respiratory as the last gentleman had said.

NATHANBut I think the main people that are gonna be using this stuff are the people that just figure, well, that's, you know, it's better than nothing, people that are on probation or have urinalysis through their employers.

NNAMDIDr. Johnson, as someone who studies abused drugs, what should the average person be wary of when it comes to not just synthetic marijuana, but any legal high that is not originally intended for that purpose?

JOHNSONEverything. The folks that are selling it to you are under no -- you know, there's no regulation of their market. It all has this very gray market, you know, not for human consumption. I mean, originally folks were, you know, just claiming there's nothing synthetic in there. This is just a very special mixture of these legal herbs. So the pulmonary reactions, you know, like you said, with other legal highs, just be very cautious.

JOHNSONI mean, if you're going to do this, learn as much as you can. I wouldn't encourage anybody to use these things, but certainly there are things being sold now -- there is this methedrone being sold as these bath salts. There's a lot of very dangerous things out there. So those are more stimulant drugs. There's a whole new -- and it's only gonna increase with the Internet. And there's virtually no way to stop the sale of these things internationally. So be very -- just be very cautious across the board.

NNAMDIDr. Matthew Johnson is a psychopharmacologist and professor at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine who studies drugs of abuse. Dr. Johnson, thank you for joining us.

JOHNSONThank you. My pleasure.

NNAMDIJames Sanborn is a reporter for the Marine Corps Times. He's been following synthetic pot and the way it's been affecting members of the military. James Sanborn, thank you for joining us.

SANBORNThank you.

NNAMDIAnd Jeremy Essig is a comedian and writer. He tried synthetic pot as research for a column in the Columbia Missourian Newspaper. Jeremy Essig, thank you for joining us.

ESSIGThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDI"The Kojo Nnamdi Show" is produced by Brendan Sweeney, Tara Boyle, Michael Martinez, and Ingalisa Schrobsdorff, with help from Kathy Goldgeier and Elizabeth Weinstein. Diane Vogel is the managing producer. Our engineer today, Andrew Chadwick. Dorie Anisman has been on the phones. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.