MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. What a difference 50 years can make. During the 1950s and '60s, Washington Southwest quadrant became the first full scale experiment with urban renewal. Five hundred sixty acres of old neighborhood, slums and historic homes were bulldozed, replaced by modern buildings and new freeway and a car-centric vision for the city of the future. It created a unique middle class community, but in retrospect, it also created a built environment divorced from the rest of the city, neither urban nor suburban.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIToday, the Southwest is poised for a new transformation, a $1.5 billion plan to bring restaurants, apartments and hotel rooms along Main Avenue. The idea to create D.C.'s first walkable destination underwater and the second downtown corridor away from federal Washington. We're exploring the Southwest Waterfront past, present and future with Roger Lewis. He's an architect and columnist writing the Shaping the City column for the Washington Post. He's professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. Roger, always a pleasure.

MR. ROGER LEWISThank you, always.

NNAMDIJoining us in studio is also is Jane Freundel Levey, director of heritage programs with Cultural Tourism D.C. She was the primary author and researcher of "Cultural Tourism Southwest Waterfront Walking Tour." Jane, good to see you again.

MS. JANE FREUNDEL LEVEYSo nice to be here. Thank you.

NNAMDIAnd joining us from the studios of WBGO in Newark, New Jersey is Stanton Eckstut, founding principal with Ehrenkrantz, Eckstut & Kuhn Architects. He designed the master plan for the Southwest D.C. Waterfront Development Project. The project is being developed by PN Hoffman and Madison Marquette. Stanton Eckstut, thank you for joining us.

MR. STANTON ECKSTUTI'm delighted to be here, thanks. And you can call me Stan, that's fine.

NNAMDIRoger, starting with you. Washington, D.C. was founded along two rivers, along miles and miles of waterfront. But unlike cities like Baltimore or Seattle or European cities like Paris, Washingtonians don't have very many places to enjoy the water. Why is that?

LEWISWell, they have plenty of places to enjoy the water if they want to take a walk in the park. There are miles of federal parkland lining the Anacostia and Potomac River. So, it's not that we can't get to the rivers, but as to the number of places that you can go and sit enjoy yourself on a terrace or a deck adjacent to overlooking the water while nursing a beer or soft drink -- let's be inclusive here.

NNAMDIYeah, on this show, you know, we usually talk about materials -- glass, stone, marbles, cement. But on a certain level, Roger, it feels this conversation is about two different substances, beer and hamburger.

LEWISWell, I -- many times, I have to -- many times I've gone to National Harbor in Georgetown, which is one of the only places you can do that. And frankly, I'm ready to go somewhere else. I think that Washington generally has committed itself mainly because of really the park service and the federal interest to a strategy of essentially lining its riverscapes with parkland. And my feeling is that there is a need for not only places in the parks, there's nothing wrong with building pavilions in parks, but also places where the city might actually come to the water.

NNAMDITo have a truly great accessible waterfront, Roger says the key variable is having some sort of place to sit down or to drink or a meal, enjoy and absorb the environment. Stan, you designed a new plan for revitalizing this strip of land. Tell us about the changes that are coming.

ECKSTUTWell, picking up from what Roger said, we are bringing the city and, more important, the district -- not the federal city but the district -- to the water's edge and making it a place that people can feel the normal city streets and blocks and small alleyways and courtyards. And it's essentially, it's a desire to make it as urban as we can possibly do so that people can do exactly what Roger said plus live, and work, seek out entertainment. And the big difference is, they can actually get out on piers and over the water and they can get on vessels and they can just have an extraordinary number of things to do. So they'll spend a longer time and keep coming back.

NNAMDIYou can join this conversation if you'd like to know more about what's likely to evolve in Southwest at 800-433-8850. Go to our website, kojoshow.org or send us a tweet @kojoshow. Jane, the changes coming to Southwest reflect modern ideas about walkable, livable communities, mixed development and public spaces, but they cannot be fully divorced from this quadrant's history. Why does Southwest look like it does today?

LEVEYWell, Southwest looks like it does today because it was the recipient of a federal gift, otherwise known as a federal experiment that happened in the 1950s and '60s. And I don't want to be callous about this or glib, I mean the people who came up with the idea for urban renewal really did have the best of the community at heart. They weren't out there to destroy. They were just a little bit distracted by the ability to build, the ability to make roads, the ability to make buildings, the ability to make a new city for all, which was one of the mantras of the period. Southwest, of course, was one of our earliest settlements in D.C. There were people living there before Washington came in the -- well, before Washington was designated in 1791 and before the Congress came in 1800. And it developed into our working class waterfront.

LEVEYYou know, when we talk about the waterfront as an amenity, that's a really modern idea. Back when the city started, the waterfront was a place that was working. It was where we had people coming and going, where we had materials coming in, where activities that gave up noxious substances were located. It's where we had breweries. You didn't go to the waterfront to have a beer, you went to make beer on the waterfront. So that's what it was like. And we had lots of working class folks. And by the 1940s, it was a pretty sad quadrant. It did need help. It need reviving. People like to say, well, so did Georgetown and we kept Georgetown and we got rid of Southwest. And that's true.

NNAMDIAt various times in our history, you mentioned, it's been home to shipyards and industry. It was one of the truly integrated neighborhoods in the city, home to free blacks, Jews and immigrants, and it was the neighborhood where, as you pointed out, the ideals of urban renewal were first tested, I guess, with the best of intentions. But as my mother always said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

NNAMDIRoger and Stan, you're both architects. You design buildings. But what we're talking about here is designing places, public spaces and environments that hopefully outlast any single structure. Stan, allow me to start with you. What's the difference? Does this require you to be more visionary?

ECKSTUTWell, the people in the '50s probably thought they were visionary. No, I think it's more about understanding and caring about cities and how people live in cities. And it's not trying -- the '50s was all about the suburban view of cleaning up the city. We're actually -- I grew up in the city. I don't know any other way of living. And walking sidewalks with cars and mixing it up with all kinds of types of buildings and different uses and having even the street car potentially out on the water's edge on a new -- a new idea, which was an old idea of a real wharf.

ECKSTUTWhich may be it was a working wharf before, but it's still work here. It has the sort of all the vessels and all the maritime activity, which is going be greatly expanded beyond just the mariners that you see today. So it's a city fabric, which is, you know, going around DuPont Circle and all the various neighborhoods that are farther up in D.C., away from the federal land areas. It's really bringing that quality of life to the water's edge.

NNAMDIOh, you should know Roger grew up in a city too, but a slightly different kind of city, Houston, Texas. But, Roger, when we think of great waterfront cities, we think of Baltimore's Inner Harbor, Seattle's Pike Place or we think of European cities like Paris. Are we bringing Washington, D.C. into that category?

LEWISWell, I think that Washington, D.C. is unique. And by the way, I should say hi to Stan. Stan and I have known each other for a long time.

ECKSTUTHello, Roger.

LEWISThe -- no, I think that -- I don't think we're trying to catch up or emulate other cities necessarily. I think this is partly, Southwest Waterfront in particular is partly about remediation, changing a place that was built, as was pointed out, in the '50s and '60s when there was a certain attitude or cultural ethos of foot in the land in which the automobile was the dominant mode of transportation. No one talked about making pedestrian environments. No one talked about bicycling. No one talked about the notion that Jane Jacobs talked about in her book, "The Death and Life of Great American Cities."

LEWISThe notion that in fact the city fabrics that we all know, whether it's New York or Chicago, or even places in Houston, believe it or not, those are really -- they had characteristics that were desirable. We got rid of that because the notion -- everybody was moving to the suburbs. And the result was, the Southwest Waterfront in particular was developed in a way, for those who know it, that really is anti-urban. There's Main Avenue, then there's another street parallel to Main Avenue so there's actually a redundancy of streets, huge amount of surface parking lots and then these three or four low rise, low density building sitting there where the food was rarely worth going for, I will be honest about that.

LEWISAnd it just, it was a misfit. I mean, when I came here about when you did, I think, in 1967, '68 and I remember, even then looking at this and saying there's something wrong with this picture. So I think what Stan is doing, what the city is doing, what the developers are doing is in part correcting a situation that has long needed correcting.

NNAMDIDo you live or have you spent time along D.C.'s Southwest Waterfront? You can call us, 800-433-8850. What do you think of its architecture and built environment? 800-433-8850 or send e-mail to kojo@wamu.org. Before I do that, Stan, talk a little bit about exactly what we're talking about developing here -- 26 acres, it's my understanding, 400 marina slips, 560 apartments, 600 hotel rooms, 840,000 square feet of office space. Does that about capture it?

ECKSTUTYeah, I think so except that about half the land area is being devoted to public space in the form of this great wharf that will connect to the entire length from the existing fish market all the way down to a major public park at the far eastern end. It also connects up at least six or eight major piers, a few of them existing, many of them new. We're bringing much more maritime activity, all types, there's about 20 different types of maritime activities and a very ambitious water plan. So this becomes one of great harbors of the world, not a marina, which it is today, but a great harbor. The city was actually laid out for arriving from the sea.

ECKSTUTAnd we feel like we need to have a city pier, a place where all the great ships of the world's countries can arrive and meet the people of D.C. So, there's much more to the public place making and we've given, even though we place great emphasis on the public space first and foremost. Buildings are a big part, but they are means of creating these public environments. And probably one of the greatest tools that we have working for us is that PN Hoffman and Madison Marquette had figured out how to provide the ability to underground parking, which is rare, especially along waterfronts, where they have high water tables. This opens up all the possibilities of a great pedestrian experience.

NNAMDIJane Freundel Levey, I saw a question mark in your response.

LEVEYYeah, um-hum. Thank you, Kojo. Stan, hi.

ECKSTUTHi.

LEVEYI'm a historian and so I kind of have the view of looking back. And I have pictures in my mind of the old waterfront. But what I have in my head is the old waterfront and then we have the land that was reclaimed that made the Washington Channel happen there. And you're talking about a significant maritime activity, is there really room for ocean-going vessels? Is that what you're talking about?

ECKSTUTThere are indeed. But the vessels can be all seen in the Baltimore Inner Harbor, which is all the various commercial vessels that serve all kinds of uses and interests. And they have more, you know, more draft than a small motor boat would. But we have that here. And it takes regular dredging like most harbors. But we've been through extensive reviews and they continue to go on with the Army Corp. We have major maritime consultants that are used to doing great harbors around the world.

ECKSTUTSo it turns out, yes, it's true. We're going to consolidate the marinas. We're going to extend them out a little more. The Channel will be used in a safe way. We're not going to compromise a thing in terms of maritime operations.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation on the new southwest waterfront being planned for the District of Columbia. If you have already called, stay on the line. If the lines are busy as they seem to be, go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. Or send us a tweet at kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back, Roger Lewis is with. So we're discussing architecture, specifically the development that's going to be taking place in Southwest Washington, the Southwest Waterfront where Stanton Eckstut is the founding principle of Ehrenkrantz Eckstut and Kuhn Architects. He designed the master plan for the Southwest D.C. Waterfront development project and he joins us from studios of WBGO in Newark, New Jersey.

NNAMDIRoger Lewis, of course, is in the studio with us. He is the columnist writing the "Shaping the City," column for The Washington Post and professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. And joining us in studio also is Jane Freundel Levey, director of Heritage Programs with Cultural Tourism DC. She was the primary author and researcher for, "Cultural Tourism: Southwest Waterfront Walking Tour." Allow me to go directly to the telephones to Jeff in Washington, D.C. Jeff, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JEFFHi, everyone. This whole development sounds extremely exciting. My question centers around whether density is an important factor in the development success, kind of going forward into the future?

NNAMDIStan?

JEFFThanks so much.

ECKSTUTWell, density is what gives it the life. It's a density that's much needed here. There's just nothing, no activities here whatsoever. The desire here is for us to make a very compact walkable environment with ground level animation throughout. Main Avenue would have one kind of retail, the wharf would probably be, along with many of the public squares, much more food and beverage. The vessels also bring a lot of density. There's a lot of density in maritime activity.

ECKSTUTBut we're not probably as dense as a lot of the adjacent areas which look like there's a lot of open space but truly they are very dense. We're trying to build within the reasonable heights of D.C. and there's a lot of history here in terms of density and height that we have accepted and are able to make all these great places without increasing the density. But, yeah, it's -- and it's not just density, it's the mix of the ground level retail shops, restaurants and all. It's a mix of office buildings, a certain amount.

ECKSTUTA mix of residential of various types, hotels and entertainment in the form of a music club and the making sure we also preserve the fish market that's there today. And see if we can't expand more of a market place.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Jeff. Here is David in Southwest Washington, D.C. on the same topic. David, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DAVIDYes, good afternoon. I'm David Sobelsohn, until recently one of Southwest D.C.'s advisory neighborhood commissioners. I called for two reasons. First, I want to remind everyone planning the new Southwest, not to repeat the mistake of the 1950s and 1960s. Thousands of people lived here. Redevelopment of the Waterfront must involve and engage people who live here now, not just increase property values in the neighborhoods so much as to cause everyone, especially renters, to move away because they can't afford to live here anymore.

DAVIDDon't build an ideal city for a hypothetical new residence. Build a neighborhood that includes the thousands who live here already. Second, I want to announce today on this show that the last weekend of September, 2011, Southwest Washington will host a major arts festival. The festival will include visual art, music, dance and other performance, food, of course, and possibly even carnival rides and wine tasting. It will reach from Southwest Waterfront to South Capitol Street. We've met with representatives of PN Hoffman and Madison Marquette and look forward to their involvement in the arts festival.

NNAMDIDavid, thank you very much for the announcement. In terms of the question, Stan Eckstut, can you offer assurances that there will be no significant displacement of current residents of the area?

ECKSTUTWell, actually this is an extraordinary project. It has no relocation involved. We're dealing with vacant, under-utilized land. There's a few clubs that have closed up. The hotel will be made into mini hotels. So this is an opportunity where we're also not trying to be idealistic. We're trying to respond to the current market place. There's lots of different types of residences for a full range of price points as you find in the adjacent neighborhoods.

ECKSTUTAnd one of the things that the client here, Hoffman and the city, have been very focused on -- is probably for the last two, three years, I've been to just a small amount of the huge number of meetings and outreach where all the listening has been very focused around shaping the plan. And the truth is, we've loved the information and the more constraints the better. So we are very responsive and I hope the community has found this particular development group -- they're very good at listening.

NNAMDIAnd, indeed, some of the bigger night clubs around the Zanzibar, H2O are already gone. But, Roger, it would be naive to think that this can be completed without any economic pressures at all.

LEWISWell, I'm glad you mentioned economics. First of all, the question early about density and I think it was implicit in Stan's comments, without adequate density, it becomes very difficult to finance projects like this because there's a lot of infrastructure work that has to be done. There's tremendous amount of investment. Both in terms of demolition and reconfiguring the road network to building -- to stabilizing the bulkheads. I mean, there's a -- just a great deal of money has to go into making it buildable, much less actually, going into the 3rd dimension with the architecture.

LEWISSo density is one of the things that the developers would tell you, if they were here, is indispensable in order to make it economically feasible. The city would tell you the same thing. And as I think the mixing of use -- I think all of the things that Stan has nailed very well, the menu of activities and uses and the open space. The public round strategy that's essential to making this all work. I think the fact remains, though, that the pace of development, the exact nature of what's built will be market driven.

LEWISThis is not a place that's going to be totally built by a government. So people should keep in mind that the market will up right here.

NNAMDIAnd Jane Freundel Levey, allow me to add this e-mail that we got from Ed, who lives in Southwest. "I live on the Waterfront. And while I am overjoyed to see the redevelopment along Water Street, from what I can tell, there will be a lot of infill. Water Street will be covered and views of the channel will be available only down corridors. Why politically and economically must there be so much construction? Also the Waterfront has had a reputation as a party area on the weekends, especially when Holgate's was open. What will be done to keep activities orderly and family friendly?" A lot of this goes back to a little bit of the more recent history of this area.

LEVEYRight. I was going to add to what Roger was just saying about the issue of density. And that has to do with the economic development. But it also has to do with how the results play out on a daily basis. If you don't have the density of population, people living there, not just people working there and coming to do something. But people actually living there, you will have a Waterfront that is almost as quiet as it is right now.

LEVEYSo I think it's a good thing. Of course, it has to be balanced and as to the question about view corridors and blocking things, I think that we all share that. Again, as a historian, I carry pictures in my head of what it used to be like. I have a picture in my head of what it looks like now. And one of the great things about what was done in the 1950's and '60's was the creation of views for people in those apartments. And some of that's going to get blocked. There's no question about it with the new plans.

NNAMDIWhat was the history of displacement in the 1950's and '60's?

LEVEYWell, in the 1950s and '60s, the whole 20 -- 23,000 people were displaced. And they were displaced from small townhouses and row houses that look very much like the modest structures you see today in Georgetown or in Capitol Hill. They are from the same era. And that was all displaced. And, of course, what was also displaced was the communities, though. Those people didn't just live in and not talk to each other. There were strong communities in Southwest. And when people were moved out, they were -- many of them left on their own.

LEVEYMany of them were relocated with government assistance. The government, unfortunately, was not able to relocate people in clusters. So they lost their senses of community. And that was a very sad thing. So the displacement that people are talking about now, though, is going to be economic. I mean, if you have renters in a community where the rents go up, where they can't afford to shop, can't afford to go to the dry cleaner that's nearby because it's just out of their range. People are going to move on.

LEVEYAnd that would be a shame.

NNAMDIIndeed, we got a posting on our website from Jason who says, "How will this development provide affordable housing to D.C. residents? When I say affordable housing, I don't just mean low income, but also middle class housing suitable for families. Most new developments in D.C. tend to mean condos from studio to two bedrooms in size." Care to comment on that, Stan Eckstut?

ECKSTUTYes, the city and developer have been working on the mix from day one. And the project will have a balance of a full market but even in the market there's rental and there's also other affordable developments. I don't know the details of the programs and the names and numbers but it's always been a factor in this planning to date. And they're all mixed in together. It isn't like there's one part that's, you know, less expensive than another. And it is something that the city and the developer have been working very hard to achieve.

ECKSTUTAnd I believe they now have a mix and a formula. I don't have the exact numbers because I don't (unintelligible)...

NNAMDIAnd we should clarify for our...

ECKSTUT...I'm not thinking of that.

NNAMDI...for our listening audience that Stan Eckstut and his firm have already established the framework right now. The specifics are not set in stone so he won't be able to tell you all the specifics. But speaking of the big picture, Roger Lewis, take us up to 30,000 feet. Tell us about the Federal Center and what relation...

LEWISYeah, well, I think the listeners should be reminded that just a little bit to the east is the Southeast Federal Center, adjacent to the Navy yard. This is...

NNAMDIFrom David, thank you for your call.

LEWIS...It's been already an influence by the building of the baseball stadium and really walking distance from Southwest Waterfront. And what I foresee in 10 years is a really continuous Waterfront -- animated Waterfront with people living there, working there, going there for recreation and entertainment and baseball games and what have you. So if you zoom back, you really see that there's -- there are two Waterfronts works in progress. One underway, somewhat stalled because of the financial conditions in the United States the last three or four years.

LEWISBut I have no doubt that will resume. We've talked about that before on the show. So I think it's important for people to always look at the bigger context. And again, as we've pointed out, as Stan has mentioned and Jane's mentioned, what we're doing is continuing to build what is a work in progress. The city of Washington, and I think it's very -- even the attitude about the view -- the changes of views in vistas for people, there's no question, some people are going to feel like this is an infringement on something they've -- have felt they had a right to.

LEWISBut it's also part of the natural organic change that cities experience. And I think the -- my perception is that everybody involved in this is doing the best that we can do to make it work as well as it can for the most number of people.

NNAMDIWell, speaking about this as a Waterfront, it takes us to Bob in Washington, D.C. Bob, you're on the air, go ahead, please.

BOBThank you, Kojo, and thanks for taking my call. Gentlemen, I have two questions. One, is that there's a wonderful organization by the name of D.C. Sail. It teaches children and adults to sail from the Waterfront. And, Stan, I want to know whether some accommodation has been made for, you know, including them and maybe expanding their program? And the second is, most big cities have a tall ship that they're kind of proud of and they (word?) their tall ship from various places.

BOBAnd D.C. doesn't have one. And I was wondering if any specific provisions have been made for looking at bringing a tall ship? I know, there's a national maritime heritage foundation that's involved with that. But I was -- I would like to know if there's any dedicated space for that? It'd be drafting about 16, 17 feet. Thank you, Stan. Thank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIWell, you should know, Bob, that a very famous slave revolt almost happened on a ship in Southwest, D.C. so another reminder that this is a waterfront. But before I get Jane to talk about that, Stan, can you talk about whether or not you know if there's any plan to continue the work of teaching children to sail there or that would prohibit it and whether or not any plans for a tall ship?

ECKSTUTI think all of these are incorporated in the water plan, which while we -- the thing that's unique about this Waterfront, we're doing both a land plan and a water plan. And we're doing them together. And there is a significant part around a recreation pier where we're looking at sailing and kiosks and things that are on a more smaller personal level and a safer place. And then we're also looking at the city pier as a place, not just for a standing tall ship, but for visiting tall ships from around the world. So this is a big part of the program as we go forward.

NNAMDIWhat's your ship story, Jane Freundel Levey?

LEVEYWe're talking about the Pearl, I take it?

NNAMDIYes.

LEVEYYes, well, that taking -- going back now in history in 1848, a number of enslaved people in Washington and the best number we have is 77, we're not quite sure. It changes from day to day, you know us historians, we revise things. But they got together and decided they'd had enough and they hired a sailing ship called the Pearl to come and fetch them away from slavery. And they did go down to the Southwest Waterfront to -- not one of the wharfs because they would've been seen but a little bit below one of the wharfs down there, got on the ship and they almost pulled it off.

LEVEYThey got down as far as Point Lookout, which was almost at the Chesapeake, when a number of the slave owners who were tipped off that this had happened caught up with them. And brought them all back to Washington and then they were unloaded at the 7th Street Wharf and paraded through the city which caused a riot to happen. It was pretty ugly. And eventually many of the people who tried to escape were sold back. Not only sold back into slavery, but sold south, way far away from here. But then, there's some happy endings to the story and it's all on the Heritage Trails sign down by the waterfront.

LEVEYBecause if I took the time to tell you now, Kojo would cut me off.

NNAMDIBut thank you very much for telling us that part of the story. And thank you for your call, Bob. Speaking of boats on the water, let's go to Alan in Northwest Washington. Alan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ALANGood afternoon, hi, Kojo, thank you for the opportunity. We, being a bunch of folks who live on our boats down at the Southwest Waterfront have been there for a very long time and we take very much pride in our community. And consider ourselves very valuable to the community and we like to get involved in these discussions to, again, figure out what future we have. There are about a 100 of us who live aboard at the Gangplank Marina. And many, many more who live aboard at the Kaplae (sp?) Yacht Club just west of us.

ALANAnd wondered if there is any thought being giving to us being able to sustain our way of life?

NNAMDII don't know, Stan Eckstut?

ECKSTUTI remember a major public meeting at the arena stage recently where live on boat community was there and many of them. And I think they got some significant insurance by Monty Hoffman that were committed to live on boats. And I think it's been -- I know for a fact, the last two years, that's probably one of the most represented members of all the public meetings. And Eleanor Bacon, one of the other members of the development team, has taken an active interest in the people that live in the Marina.

NNAMDIAnd at a later date we will be inviting PN Hoffman and Madison Marquette into our studios to have this conversation with Roger about exactly what their plans are. Along with residents on the water, and that would include people like you, Alan, in the short run, does this mean that when the restaurants and bars etc. are established there I will have a refuge in case I have imbibed too much at your place? Alan?

ALANI'm sorry, you were cutting out.

NNAMDIOh, okay. But we just wanted to say thank you very much for your call.

ALANOh, Kojo, you know, you're always welcome.

NNAMDIOh, you did hear. Thanks a lot, Alan. We've got to take a short break. When we come back we will continue this conversation on the future of the Southwest Waterfront. But you can still call us at 800-433-8850. Or go to our website kojoshow.org. Ask a question or make a comment. Or send us a tweet @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation on what's gonna be happening at the Southwest Waterfront starting in 2012. We're talking with Stanton Eckstut. He is a founding principal of Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects. He designed the master plan for the Southwest DC Waterfront Development Project, but it's being developed by PN Hoffman and Madison Marquette, who we'll be having in the studio at a later date to have a more specific conversation about what's taking place there.

NNAMDIRoger Lewis is an architect. He writes the "Shaping the City" column for the Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. And Jane Freundel Levy is director of Heritage Programs with Cultural Tourism D.C., and primary author and researcher of Cultural Tourism Southwest Waterfront Walking Tour. We're taking your calls at 800-433-8850.

NNAMDIStan, Roger, when architects design new plans for a neighborhood, they typically consider what the surrounding buildings look like. But the new Arena Stage, and these new plans for the Waterfront don't seem to be emulating very much from the current layout. Why not? What's up with that?

LEWISWell, um, the -- when you use the term layout, I immediately think of plan.

NNAMDIYes.

LEWISA two-dimensional deployment of streets, blocks, and open space. I mean I think that what you've got down there is first of neighborhood that's fully in transition. There are buildings -- the Southwest renewal area is a mix of buildings that have everything from pre-cast concrete panels on the outside to brick, quite eclectic stylistically and esthetically. And the same is true as you move north. So I would say right away that -- that there's not some dominant architectural language that can be attributed to that area.

LEWISSo let's put that out there for people to consider. I think the arena -- I just wrote an article recently that you may have seen about...

NNAMDIYes.

LEWIS...about the new arena, in which I address this issue. I mean, I think that what's -- what is going to happen is that we're going to have architecture developed along the waterfront that not's gonna -- it's not gonna look like the arena. It's not necessarily going to emulate or replicate or echo what we see to the east and southwest, or for that matter replicate what we see in the federal city. I mean, I don't think we're going to see a lot of buildings with gigantic Corinthian columns and pediments.

LEWISI mean, I doubt we're gonna to see that. I don't think Stan's intention is to do that. Or whoever does the architecture. So I think -- I think what my hope is, and this is really the answer to your question, I think that over time, with I assume there will be design guidelines that go with this master plan that will ensure certain kinds of things don't happen. But my -- my hope and my -- I'm optimistic about this.

LEWISMy hope is that it will be an architecture that's appropriate for that site for the waterfront that's sustainable, that ensures people wonderful views and comfortable and commodious apartments and places to live and work. So I -- I think the architecture, I'm not worried about that yet. I should P.S., you still are only gonna get architecture as good as the architects who design it.

NNAMDIStan, the new plans are very beautiful, but they're taking the architecture it would appear in a different direction. What was your thinking about the design and the esthetics?

ECKSTUTWell, the '50s and modernism in general, they -- all their design thinking was doing the building as an object sitting in the open space. We have taken the exact opposite and have instead learned about what the District has been all of its life as a city, and it's really -- the street is the inspiration, and the square and the courtyard. And that is the buildings are a means of making great places. And not just any place, but this place.

ECKSTUTWe are actually interested in the architecture from day one. I'm thinking of it all the time, and I'm hoping to see more and more of the District, because what we'd love to do here is to bring the same variety and mix and eclectic ideas, and if anything, I'm trying to design with our development partners that creates an opportunity for many ideas like you find in the district.

ECKSTUTAnd not be any -- no overbearing rules and prototypes that means that it winds up being a project and not a place.

NNAMDIJane, when many of the big apartment complexes along Southwest were built in the 1960s, they were seen as great examples of modern design. What ideas were they evoking? Are they still considered noteworthy or innovative? I got to tell you, because we got this e-mail from Monica in Southeast Washington who says, "There are a lot of ugly brutalist style buildings in Southwest that are just that, brutal. They really kill the walkability and life in the area. Is there the collective will to get rid of them?

NNAMDIThey house some really -- some of the really big federal agencies," which is what Roger was referring too. We don't think we're gonna see that kind of construction.

LEVEYNo. I think in the 1950s and '60s, what Stan just said was perfect. And I wrote it down. He said the buildings were an object in the open space. That's a perfect description of it. And it did not relate to anything that had been there because there wasn't anything to relate to except each other. And that's how we ended up with not only the blocky, square high rises that Southwest has today, but of course the federal buildings that are on its border dividing it from the Mall.

LEVEYAnd as we were saying, some of those buildings are not the grand federal triangle Beaux-Arts with the Corinthian columns, and that's the extent of my architectural vocabulary gentlemen. But they were pretty basic and pretty square. And I think back in the '50s and '60s the modernist idea was not only the object in the open field there, but it was that it was an escape from the past. And it was more utilitarian and it was simpler and it was going to be more cost effective.

LEVEYWhen Roger was talking about the materials in the '50s and '60s Southwest, one he left out was the aluminum, and there was all of these experiments with putting aluminum on the facades of buildings down there, which today look a little odd to us because nobody I don't think picked it up again after that. Is that right, Roger? Did anybody go with aluminum after Southwest?

LEWISOh, yes. Oh, yeah. And now, we're seeing...

LEVEYHere -- but here in D.C. is what I mean. I don't think...

LEWISThere was -- there was some. But I think that what -- there are many different ways to apply metal skins to buildings. And we are seeing that -- we are seeing metal skins again. I think Stan's put it very well though. I mean, I think the idea is to use the building, the buildings can frame, can define, can enclose space. They shape this -- the public realm that we keep talking about, and that's what I think Stan's shooting for.

NNAMDISpeaking of historic, here is Martha in Bethesda, Md. Martha, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MARTHAYes, hello, Kojo. And thank you for taking my call. Kojo, I live in one of the historic buildings in Southwest and as a matter of fact, my family comes from that area back into the 1800s. But one of things that I'd like to say is that while I applaud the design, and I'm certainly really very happy for the Southwest to be shared, because I think it's a great area, and I think that the design is bringing a lot of life to the area.

MARTHAI don't think that the issue of walkability has been really addressed. And I also think that the issue of traffic has not really been considered as much as they say. I've been to many of the meetings and we're talking about perhaps having different transit -- having a tram car come through. That doesn't bother me except that if you've ever been on Main Avenue during the day, you know how busy it is, and how difficult it would be to lose one of the areas.

MARTHAAnd they have talked about a 60-foot area between the buildings and water, which 20 would be for the roadway, 20 would be next to the building, and 20 would be next to the water. And yet they're talking about have kiosks and everything along the ones that are along the water. So if I'm assuming that we want to have restaurants on the building side, and we probably have outdoor cafes, we're starting to talk about not very much room for walking. And I truly enjoy that area for walking.

MARTHASo I'm wondering if they really are telling the residents about keeping some of the character of the neighborhood.

NNAMDII suspect that's a conversation better held with PN Hoffman and Madison Marquette when we get them in the studio. But Stan may want to offer an initial response to you, Martha.

ECKSTUTWell, I don't know. I'm constantly learning and improving the plan, but I have to say that the total focus and inspiration for this work is a walkable city fabric. And I'm always looking to find new ways of doing it, but, you know, one of the things about great cities, and where we all -- if we want to go to a great city and enjoy our vacations, we always go to places that have small sidewalks and small walkable areas.

ECKSTUTThey're much more comfortable and attractive. Not big wide areas. We do have our big wide areas, we have many squares. You're now gonna be able to walk out on piers, major piers. But this wharf that we talk about at the water's edge, it -- when it really gets busy with people walking, they're not gonna allow cars there. It's gonna be managed, you know. This is what's going on with streets in Europe now, is we're managing streets for pedestrians.

ECKSTUTThey're actually starting to take over and dominate. My worry in doing this place, and why we're even suggesting cars along the waterfront at all, is we have to serve the water vessels, because they -- they need service, but also I'm worried about the wintertime, I'm worried about nighttime. I'm not worried about the beautiful sunny day. We're probably gonna to, you know, not have cars there. And we have plenty of space to walk.

ECKSTUTAnd we're all gonna be on one level, not broken up into two, and it's all ADA accessible. I wish -- I wish I could spend a whole hour just talking about the walkability of this plan, because it is just enormously wonderful. So we'll get to it. We have to explain ourselves better, and we still have a lot of room for improvement.

NNAMDIMartha, thank you very much for your call. Roger, one contentious part of this new plan is a building that will rise to 11 stories. Some community members are unhappy. They feel it might obscure their views.

LEWISWell, I think -- I think we should be honest. Some views are going to be obscured or changed. And I think that would be true whether you build an eight-story building, or an 11-story building. I don't think that's an issue. I do think what we -- being radio, we can't show people what the plan is, but in fact there are -- there are spaces...

NNAMDIOf course you can find it on our website, at kojoshow.org.

LEWISThat's right. That's right. And they will see there are spaces between buildings. The view will change. There will -- I know that the people at Arena for example, when I interviewed Molly Smith and a few other people over there, they were -- and the architect being Tom, they were concerned about their losing their views. And I said, you're not gonna lose your views. It's going to be a modified view.

LEWISYou'll be looking -- there are car -- there are visually easements if you will, that exist between buildings. They will have views framed of the water beyond. I think the -- the other thing I would add, I mean, I -- I want to -- not being the author of the plan, I can say that I think the plan they're coming p with is a very good plan. I mean, I think it is going to be very pedestrian friendly, more than ample.

LEWISI talked earlier about the Southeast Federal Center. The other thing people might want to be reminded of is the National Capital Planning Commission's ambitions for re-doing the whole Tenth Street corridor leading from the Mall down to this area. Again, if you go up to 40 or 50,000 feet, you begin to see that there's an even greater network that involves transportation, that involves new uses, new densification, more open space.

LEWISI mean, I think this -- this is part of a bigger plan that I think could be really quite exciting for the city of Washington.

NNAMDIYou know what Roger just said, the question Martha raised, this whole conversation we're having, Jane, underscores this. When we look at how decisions were made by the government and redevelopment authorities 50 years ago versus now, you can see, I guess that the city approaches these matters very differently today.

LEVEYOh, absolutely. First of all, 50, 60 years ago we had three commissioners who were in charge of the city of Washington. And they made all the decisions, and one of them was an engineer with -- from the Army Corps of Engineers. And his whole perspective on the world was about building things. And he wasn't a walker. He was all about roads and driving. We also have in history, in 1956, the Federal Highways Act which released huge amounts of money from the federal government to build roads.

LEVEYThey weren't talking about building sidewalks. And you could build freeways where 90 percent of the cost was picked up by the federal government. All of these things were just incredibly seductive. And they had a lot do with why Southwest Washington was developed the way it was with these large streets and places for people to park and nowhere to go. Today we've rethought all of that, and we're back to the 18th Century. We're back to walking places.

LEVEYWashington D.C. originally ended at Florida Avenue because that was as far as you could comfortably walk. And then we got into the devil of transportation. Electrified street cars that took you up the hill on 13th Street overlooking the city there, and all of a sudden things developed and started to spread out. But having things densely done in a walking city is something people really are looking forward to again.

NNAMDILet's see if we can get a short answer to Anita's question. Anita, you're on the air. We're running out of time. Make your question short, please, or brief.

ANITAOkay. And thank you for taking my call. I'm sitting here in my condo looking south over Fort Mcnair and East Potomac Park and the water. And I'm wondering what's going to happen with Fort Mcnair and East Potomac Park going south, because you're talking about connecting it to the Naval Station down there that I can see. So if somebody can answer...

NNAMDII know the golfers at East Potomac Park are probably concerned about that, too. Any idea what's going to happen with that, Stan? You only got about 30 seconds.

ECKSTUTWell, we're -- in the water plan we are providing a place for (word?) taxis to take people back and forth so that they are much more usable by all the people at the District.

NNAMDIAnita, thank you very much for your call. I don't think Fort Mcnair is going any place. Stanton Eckstut is founding principal with Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects. He designed the master plan for the Southwest DC Waterfront Development Project. It's being developed by PN Hoffman and Madison Marquette. Stan, thank you so much for joining us.

ECKSTUTMy pleasure, thank you.

NNAMDIJane Freundel Levy is director of Heritage Programs with Cultural Tourism D.C. She was the primary author and researcher of Cultural Tourism Southwest Waterfront Walking Tour. Jane, good to see you.

LEVEYThanks for having me, and everybody go walk a Heritage Trail today.

NNAMDIAnd Roger Lewis is a regular. He's the columnist who writes the "Shaping the City" for the Washington Post, an architect, and professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. Roger, always a pleasure.

LEWISAlways for me as well. Thanks.

NNAMDIThank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.