MR. KOJO NNAMDILess than a month after President Obama signed a law allowing gays to serve openly in America's armed forces, a commission of military officers are seeking to dismantle a last major area of separation. It's calling for women to be allowed to serve in combat, saying that it's time to create a level playing field for all qualified service members. The commission recommends a phased-in approach, but for many women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, combat has been a reality for years.

MR. KOJO NNAMDISoldiers have found the front lines on street corners and back allies and even underneath burqas. While many women simply want policy to match reality, this sea change will not be an easy one. Long standing questions remain about women's physical ability and their impact on military culture and cohesion. Joining us in studio to discuss this is Maren Leed, senior fellow and director of the New Defense Approaches Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Maren Leed, thank you very much for joining us.

MS. MAREN LEEDThanks for having me, Kojo.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Lieutenant Commander Victoria Stattel, veteran Navy pilot who served in Afghanistan from January to August, 2010. She's also an advisor to the American Women's Veterans Association. Thank you for joining us.

MS. VICTORIA STATTELThank you for having me.

NNAMDIYou can also join the conversation with us at 800-433-8850. Joining us by telephone is Elaine Donnelly, founder and president of the Center for Military Readiness. Elaine Donnelly, thank you for joining us.

MS. ELAINE DONNELLYI'm glad to be here, thank you.

NNAMDIAs we mentioned, a commission created by Congress will recommend that the military eliminate combat exclusions for women. Maren, before we talk about the new recommendations for women in combat, let's start with the basics. What is the official policy regarding women in combat?

LEEDWell, there are two aspects to the policy. I think it's important to distinguish between -- one aspect of the policy has to do with assignments of women and not -- and a prohibition against assigning women to units at the brigade level or below. And then, there's another branch-related or specialty-related set of policies that restricts women from serving in certain military specialties, those that -- the services are allowed to set which specialties those are. But they are typically what are referred to as the combat arms, the armory, the infantry, artillery, so as a limited set of specialties.

NNAMDIHow have the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan changed or how have they challenged that restriction?

LEEDWell, I think, for the most part, it's been with respect to the assignment piece of the exclusion policy. There have been units that have women serving in specialties in which they're allowed to serve, for example, as an Intel analyst or as an agitent (sp?) , a personnel clerk or those kinds of things, who have been unable to take those women with them when they deploy. And there's some issues associated with that. And then, there have been a number of aspects of the battlefield where women have been -- the absence of women serving in particular types of units has meant -- has limited the effectiveness of male only units, particularly in engaging with sort of female civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq and the like. So those have been two implications. There have been a number of others.

NNAMDIElaine Donnelly, despite the fact that the traditional battlefield has been altered with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, you say that the definition of direct ground combat has not. What do you mean by that?

DONNELLYThat is correct. Direct ground combat involves attacking the enemy. It's very important to understand, first of all, women have been serving admirably with courage in the current war. We all know that. That is not in dispute. Everyone in a war zone is in harm's way. Yes, women have experienced being in harm's way, but the experience of direct ground combat, women have not been involved in that. And you have to understand it, probably, best by remembering, and it wasn't that long ago, when Baghdad was liberated in 2003, when Fallujah was also liberated by special operations forces, the infantry, Army and Marine infantry.

DONNELLYThese are forces that are trained to attack the enemy. That occurred in November of 2004. The current war is different. But there is no guarantee that there will not be a need for direct ground combat troops that are trained to deliberately engage and attack the enemy. The female support teams, they certainly are carrying out a new role in the military. And it's my position that that role should be recognized.

DONNELLYAnd there's no reason it cannot be. But there is one barrier, the Army has been deliberately and knowingly violating Department of Defense regulations. They have been placing women into areas that are supposed to be all male, that are required to be all male. And they have done that without the proper notice to Congress, without even considering the effect on civilian women because registration for selective service becomes gender neutral if the Supreme Court rules now that women are in direct ground combat. If these changes and attaching women to the tip of the spear units was such a good idea, then why did they not report it to Congress in advance, as required by law with the proper analysis of what would happen with selective service?

DONNELLYThis entire process has been distorted and I think it's been unfair to military women. It certainly has not been fair to the men either. We're talking about combat realities here, not just illusions or treating the military as an equal opportunity operation.

NNAMDISpeaking of...

DONNELLY(unintelligible) we have to start with that. This entire report, it's not a military commission, Kojo. It's an equal opportunity diversity commission set up by a vote of Congress without much thought. All they're doing is promoting career opportunities. That is the primary thrust, but that's not the purpose that we have a military.

NNAMDIVictoria Stattel, speaking of combat, you just came back from Afghanistan in August. How did you or your fellow soldiers experience the new kind of battlefield we're talking about?

STATTELI think that's a great question, Kojo. It was interesting in the first place because -- speaking of the new battlefield, I'm in the Navy. So it was quite a change to be on the ground in a landlocked country. It was not exactly what I had anticipated doing when I started flying helicopters for the Navy. And I was there working with the Afghan National Police. So I think it's an excellent point just to bring out that the nature of warfare has changed.

STATTELThe way we do, whatever you want to call it, irregular warfare, asymmetrical warfare or counter insurgency in general is different. I understand what Elaine is saying regarding the direct ground combat, more of a defense role versus an attack role, and I can -- I understand that completely. But I think the bottom line is readiness and that's what we care about the most, our military needs to be ready for the fight that we're in. And it's a dynamic environment. So what Elaine did say about the Army kind of going about, in some ways, putting women where they shouldn't be, as far as the law is concerned, is something that needs to absolutely be addressed.

STATTELSo that way our commanders in the field can put folks in that are best suited for the job. And if that happens to be women, than by all means they need to be doing that because the number one priority is readiness and that we have the best force possible, getting out into the field doing the jobs that they need to be done.

NNAMDIIf you'd like to join this conversation, you can call us at 800-433-8850. Should the restrictions on women in combat be lifted? You can also send e-mail to kojo@wamu.org or simply go to our website kojoshow.org and join the conversation there. Elaine, you were on the 1992 Presidential Commission that studied women in the armed forces and after a year, that commission voted against women in combat.

DONNELLYThat's right.

NNAMDINow, we just mentioned a new commission coming to the opposite conclusion. Has your stance, if not fundamentally changed, been altered at all as the circumstances...

DONNELLY(unintelligible) ...

NNAMDI...of the modern battlefield have changed?

DONNELLY...there's a big difference and it starts with the purpose of the military. The Presidential Commission on which I served passed a resolution and it was fundamental and it -- there was a lot of debate about it. What we said was, equal opportunity is important for women in the military. However, if there is a conflict between equal opportunity and the needs of the military, the needs of the military must come first.

DONNELLYFrom that premise came the recommendations and the findings of the commission and, yes, we were opposed in the majority to the use of women in direct ground combat and other related units. This current diversity commission is totally different because it's all about diversity as the primary objective. And that's where -- I mean, you can't even get passed the first sentence of that report without seeing a flaw. It talks about President Harry Truman and how the military has been deliberately inclusive since 1948.

DONNELLYWhat it forgets is that when Harry Truman signed his executive order ending segregation in the military, it was done for the primary purpose of the needs of the military. Equal opportunity was secondary. So right from the get-go, this entire report, which is heavily influenced by Rand (sp?) and other equal opportunity professionals, primary civilian, people who are researchers, who are not with military experience, this entire report is not credible. They are not qualified to decide what is the best way that combat...

NNAMDIHere...

DONNELLY...units should be managed.

NNAMDI...here's Maren Leed.

LEEDI just want to make a couple of quick points, Kojo. First, I think the overwhelming majority of the commissioners are either active duty or retired military to include very senior military leaders.

DONNELLYYeah, she's from the Marines.

LEEDSo I think it's...

DONNELLYThat's about it.

LEED...it's disingenuous to suggest that that's a panel of civilians.

DONNELLYIt is not qualified because the Marines in the combat arms are way under-represented. And it's mission -- again, the mission has to do with equal opportunity as a primary thing, the needs of the military are secondary. Now, I'm a civilian, too, but our commission listened to the combat experts. So we had every community you could think of and we took from them the findings that we put into our report. There's a big difference there.

LEEDI think...

NNAMDIHere's Maren Leed again.

LEED...it's also important to note that the draft report -- I believe the final report is not yet issued, but the draft report indicates that that recommendation was not unanimous among the commissioners. So I think some of the issues that we're debating here are ones that they had in their deliberations and they did not come to a unanimous recommendation. But I wanted to also get to something where I think we're all in complete agreement.

LEEDThat mission effectiveness is the number one concern and needs to be the most relevant factor. And I would argue that the fact that the services have been employing women in Iraq and Afghanistan is not because of some equal opportunity objective, but exactly for the reason of mission effectiveness. And the fact that they're doing it is the clearest demonstration that those senior leaders believe that they need women there to get the job done.

NNAMDIWhich brings me to this question for you, Elaine Donnelly. And that is if women continue to be barred from combat, should the Department of Defense have a way of officially recognizing women's increased exposure to combat-like situations like they're experiencing now in Afghanistan and Iraq? And if so, how would you suggest that the Defense Department recognize that exposure?

DONNELLYIt is one thing to support women in the military as I do. And I think the majority of Americans do. It's another to say that now, because they have served in support roles and served well, that it's time to put them into the units that are trained and they have the mission of directly engaging and attacking the enemy. (unintelligible) start with...

NNAMDIWhy do you think they cannot adequately fulfill that mission?

DONNELLYPardon?

NNAMDIWhy do you think that women cannot adequately fulfill that...

DONNELLYThere are a variety of reasons...

NNAMDI...if you will, offensive mission?

DONNELLY...all of which were thoroughly documented by the Presidential Commission on which I served. You can start with physical requirements, but it's not just limited to physical requirements. Women do not have an equal opportunity to survive in a combat environment. The weights that are carried by combat soldiers today are no less than they were in the days of Julius Caesar. Physical differences do matter.

DONNELLYIf you put women into that environment and you call them equal or you train them with gender-normed standards that pretend to be equal, but they're not, you forget the fact that there's no such thing as a level playing field on the battlefield. You either do the job and help your fellow soldiers survive. If that soldier is shot and needs to be evacuated immediately, if the soldier nearest that wounded soldier is not capable of carrying him or getting him to safety on the battlefield, than it's unfair to both soldiers. And one of them will die. That's the kind of a reality that really has not changed...

NNAMDILet me talk about that kind of reality with Victoria Stattel, since she just experienced that in Afghanistan. Could you give your take on the importance of physical ability, raw physical strength?

STATTELAbsolutely. I think -- Elaine, I do agree with you completely. I think that the most important thing, like Maren and -- already said is, is readiness. And making sure that we have the strongest force, whatever that means, on the field. And so the physical requirements, I absolutely believe 100 percent that if you're going to have women in direct ground combat roles that are going to be in an attack situation, they absolutely need to have the same physical standards as the men.

STATTELMy argument is that if you have a thousand -- or a hundred candidates for 50 jobs, you take the 50 best. And if two of those, or five of those, or ten of them, happen to be women, then they happen to be women. And if -- and that's where I go from. You want the strongest force, and I think that we limit ourselves. And I think there are absolutely women who are strong enough and capable enough to do those kinds of roles.

DONNELLYThe reality is, it's a tiny, tiny minority, and you don't make policy based on a minority knowing that the advocates of this kind of a change, every time...

STATTELMm-hmm.

DONNELLY...standards are introduced, or someone tries to introduce standards to hold everyone to the same level...

STATTELMm-hmm.

DONNELLY...they are always attacked as barriers to career advancement, every single time. And this goes back to my experience with the defense advisory committee on women in the services back in the 1980s.

STATTELMm-hmm.

DONNELLYEvery time someone tried to say, well, let's have women and men in positions with the same high standards, the standards were attacked by the feminists and the same groups of people pushing diversity right now. So your expectation, and by the way, thank you for your service, Victoria, I appreciate that. Your bravery is an inspiration to all of us who go -- you go into harm's way.

DONNELLYAll the women who are serving are in harm's way, and we admire them for that. But when you're talking about lethal combat, there is no such thing as fairness, physical differences do matter when you have upper body strength of about 50 to 60 percent of that of males, even with good training. There have been so many tests of this, the data is not -- it cannot be refuted. It can be ignored, which is what this diversity commission is doing. But the data is there.

NNAMDIWell, we'll talk about career advancements since you say that that is the primary focus of this diversity commission when we come back. If you have already called, stay on the line. If you haven't yet, the number is 800-433-8850. We're talking about women in combat, and the recommendations of a commission that said that women should be included in U.S. military combat units. Again, 800-433-8850. Should the physical requirements for combat units be altered to accommodate women or should women and men meet the same physical standards? 800-433-8850. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're talking about women in combat in the U.S. Military with Elaine Donnelly, founder and president of the Center for Military Readiness. Lieutenant Commander, Victoria Stattel is a veteran Navy pilot who served in Afghanistan from January to August 2010. She's also an advisor to the American Women's Veterans' Organization. And Maren Leed is senior fellow and director the New Defense Approaches Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

NNAMDIMaren, the next big issue is career advancement. Traditionally, not serving in combat has kept soldiers from significant career advancement in the Officer Corps. Should this change, and if not, how should the military recognize women's role in combat situations at the professional level?

LEEDWell, I'm a little bit uncertain about the data behind the contention that it has in fact hampered women's career opportunities. I think in the specialties in which they are permitted to serve, it doesn't -- it's not weighted any differently for women than it is for men, and so I'm not sure that -- I don't understand the factual basis for the argument to a certain extent.

LEEDI think part of the issue is the senior leadership tends to be drawn from the combat arms branches, and very few of those, because there aren't women in those branches, are women. I actually agree with Elaine that it is harmful to the military as an organization and as an institution, to have women be put into roles for which they are not qualified. And so if you're -- I would not be supportive of having women be advanced, if they haven't met the prerequisites and have the requisite knowledge.

LEEDBut, I think -- promotion opportunity to my knowledge has not been seriously hampered given how the current structure operates for women based on lack of deployment opportunities and combat opportunities.

NNAMDIVictoria, if women were approved for combat, do you think we'd see more women joining and trying to make a career out of the military, or could it have the opposite effect?

STATTELI -- truthfully, Kojo, I don't -- I think it will have a minimal effect at best. I think most women, and men, join to do something greater than themselves, to serve in some capacity, and whatever the military -- you walk in the door, sign something with the recruiter, and you have a lot of faith in the fact that the military is going to use you in the best way possible. So I really doubt that with so many opportunities that are open to women at this point, it's not as if we're talking 50 years backwards where you can only have such a small percentage of the jobs that you can fill.

STATTELBut I don't think it will make an enormous difference. I think that women will continue, and men would continue to join as they're joining now.

NNAMDIWe have a lot of callers who would like to join this conversation, but before we go there, Elaine Donnelly, what do you think would have to change in terms of standards of participating in combat units if women were allowed into those combat units? Most of our guests here seem to feel that there would be no need to change standards, but I guess the question would be what are the standards that you think would have to change?

DONNELLYKojo, you have asked two very good questions. And the answer is, there are no standards that apply to men. The exemptions that women have, some people call them exclusions, we call them exemptions. They don't have standards that men have to prove so many exercises done in training in order to qualify. When they are in those infantry units, they perform as part of a team, and it's done in an entirely different way.

DONNELLYThey said before that every attempt to have standards that would apply to both women and men have always been attacked by the advocates of putting women in combat, who say that the barriers are unfair to women because they don't have an equal opportunity to perform with the men, which gets us right back to square one.

DONNELLYI appreciated what Victoria said about people having faith in the recruiters. The problem is that the recruiters have not been truthful in many cases, and I'm not blaming the recruiters. Let's say the Department of Defense has not been truthful in telling women that they changed the conditions of their employment without notice to Congress as required by law, and without notice.

DONNELLYSo again, if you join the military, you go where you're ordered, just like Victoria was sent to a land helicopter MOS rather than being on a ship. That's how it works in the military. You go where you're ordered to go. So I don't think it's fair to young women who want to serve their country, to change the rules against what the Department of Defense regulations say, to do so without notice, and without the oversight of Congress. I don't think that's fair to anyone.

NNAMDIAllow me to go to the telephones. Here is Gary in Washington, D.C. Gary, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GARYGood afternoon, Kojo. I think one of the -- one of the things that hasn't been discussed is that our women in almost any society are particularly members. And we have bad reactions when our women are brutalized or raped, or in any way mistreated. And to have female prisoners mistreated by the enemy could drive a society stark raving mad. And we -- and our overreaction to such an occasion could be counterproductive. I think...

NNAMDIWell, allow me to give you a list of the countries that allow women in combat. New Zealand, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Norway, Israel, Serbia, Sweden and Switzerland. Are you suggesting that those countries are less sensitive about women being injured or killed in combat?

GARYBut those countries don’t fight as much as we do. We have a lot of wars.

STATTELIsrael?

NNAMDIIsrael you're saying doesn't fight as much as we do?

GARYIf you compare Israel's combat in the past 20 years to our combat in Afghanistan and Iraq and other places, we fight a lot.

NNAMDIElaine Donnelly, do you think...

GARYAnd we have a lot of people in combat.

NNAMDIElaine Donnelly, do you think that our sensitivity to women being injured and killed is a factor in this decision?

DONNELLYWell, yes. We had some trainers who came before the presidential commission, and they were very frank. They said that we would have to teach the nation to become accustomed to violence against women in order for a women in combat program to succeed. Because really, if you think about it, if you say it's okay to have women in combat, close combat, in units that attack the enemy, it's tantamount to saying that violence against women is okay, as long as it happens at the hands of the enemy.

DONNELLYIn fact, a British feminist a couple of years back said that military men should have instincts to protect female colleagues drilled out them. I'm quoting a British newspaper here. So then we have to consider, are we becoming more accustomed to women dying in combat? Yes, we are. Every once in a while I have to update the list of women killed in this war. It's up to 119 now. The thing is though that most women don't know that. They don't the circumstances of what happened. It's barely reported the media anymore.

DONNELLYAnd that's unfortunate. I think there is a certain -- people getting accustomed to violence against women. It's not really helpful to military women, but in the feminist lexicon, this is indeed the way we should go.

NNAMDIWell, if women are permitted into combat units, what do you think will be the trickle-down effect to basic training, Victoria, Stattel? Are we talking about a big adjustment in military culture? It seems to me that new recruits might not have a problem adjusting to women in combat, just as they probably won't to gays in the military. But how about the military officers and officials already there?

DONNELLYWell, there is one element that is not going to change, and that is that men and women do relate to each other. Men and women do have sex with each other. Pregnancy is a factor, it's a readiness factor. A general -- major general a couple years back tried to treat pregnancy as a readiness factor, and guess what happened? He was shot down. Immediately came swooping down higher level officials saying you can talk about that. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. If it's a sensitive matter involving women, than nobody talks about it.

NNAMDIWhat was your experience, Victoria Stattel?

STATTELWell, I think that's an excellent question. First of all, I think the military is a unique microcosm of society, in the sense that -- kind of what you suggested, Kojo. You get these new recruits in and what they -- what you show them is what they know, and that becomes their reality. So if you bring women in and they do the same training, the new recruits are not going to know the difference, because they don't know the difference.

STATTELBut we tend to be -- we flex, that's what we do. And to be frank, it's all -- as far as I'm concerned, a lot of these issues are secondary. The most important issue is our readiness as a military force to be the strongest we can be. If it -- if this requires a couple of senior officers to go, uh, and flex the way they think, or say this is a little bit of a problem, how am I going to work this out, then I'm okay with that, if it creates a greater force of readiness.

DONNELLYDo you think that...

NNAMDIAllow...

DONNELLY...pregnancy rates though enhance readiness?

STATTELI'm sorry?

NNAMDIPregnancy rates.

DONNELLYDo you think that higher pregnancy rates enhance readiness? Navy rates have been going up considerably. I mean, this is something the Navy tires to do something about.

STATTELMm-hmm.

DONNELLYIt just doesn't seem to work because why? People are human, they make mistakes. You can't deny human failings.

STATTELYeah. And Elaine, I think that's an interesting point, but my feeling, and I have this argument with friends and folks frequently, is, you know, there's going to be some issues when you bring women, or openly gay members into your military, absolutely. I -- to say that it's all going to positive and everything's going to be sunshine and roses is absolutely not the case. But I would argue that the positives outweigh the negatives.

STATTELAnd so maybe you'll have some trouble, and maybe you're going to have some issues, and you're going to have a pregnant female, and you have to deal with that, and that's unfortunate. But we grow as a nation and as a military to learn to deal with these situations, and some of the issues that I think maybe we had eight years ago, ten years ago, 20 years ago. Situations change, and so we reevaluate.

STATTELWhat you brought up earlier about the violence against women and us getting used to that on the battlefield, you know, frankly, I think we're not used to seeing violence against men here in the United States. And that's something that -- it's a little bit of an interesting argument that I think you make there. And also going to the point about instinctually wanting to...

NNAMDIProtect women.

STATTEL...protect women. Really, at the end of the day when things happen, you're training kicks in, and you do what you need to do, and you do you're trained to do. And the thought that a women in that situation will be less helpful than any man, I really struggle with that.

NNAMDIHere is Mary in Fairfax, Va. Mary, you're on the air, go ahead, please.

MARYYes. I wanted to raise the question of physical readiness and, you know, specifically it was mentioned, the ability to carry the weight of another soldier, or to take an injured soldier off the field. And I wonder if there is -- has a look has been taken at fields like firefighting and rescue, and women in law enforcement, the standards they are held to, and how well they perform, because certainly there is an equal playing field there with regard to their...

NNAMDIMaren Leed, I thought about police officers working patrols together, two women working patrols together have to restrain male suspects.

LEEDRight. No. I think this...

DONNELLYBut there is so -- so many differences...

LEED...gets back to Elaine's point that...

NNAMDIAllow Maren Leed first, Elaine.

DONNELLYI'm sorry.

LEEDI think this gets back to Elaine's point that there haven't been any standards established. And I believe that Victoria and Elaine and I are all in agreement that if you were to open up these additional branches to women, that standards would be useful, and, in fact, in my mind required. That you would want to specify a level of weight that people would have to be able to carry over certain distances and all the rest. And then women meet that bar or they do not. And if it's five women, it's five women, and if it's no women, it's no women, and if it's 50 it's 50.

LEEDBut those standards have been set successfully in other career fields as the caller mentioned. So I do believe it's possible, and in my mind it should be part of any of this discussion.

NNAMDIElaine Donnelly, why are you so sure that if the issue of standards come up, the very people who are advocating for women in combat units will say that's not fair.

DONNELLYWell, just look at the diversity commission report, this equal opportunity report, which is not a government or military report. But you know how they get around it? They say well, there are different qualities that are just as important as physical capability. For instance, having linguistic ability. All right. So here we are in Fallujah in November 2004. You have a female soldier who's a really good linguist, and you have a soldier who's shot from someone on a roof.

DONNELLYNow, what is she supposed to do? Use her language skills to go and find someone in that environment to lift a soldier that's going to die on the battlefield because she doesn't have the capability to physically lift that soldier and save him? You see how reality...

NNAMDII guess Victoria Stattel would say she'd have to have her linguistic skills in addition to passing the physical.

STATTELRight. And...

DONNELLYBut you'd need to do it in the best way possible.

NNAMDIWe only got about 30 seconds left, I'm sorry. Victoria?

STATTELOh, I -- I was just going to say, I think, Elaine, you make an interesting point because you already do sort of have women that are going out and doing these kinds of roles. So it's -- what I feel is so vitally important is that our policy reflect what's actually going on in the field, and that we ensure that the women and men, of course, are receiving the proper training that's required for the environment they're really in today.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's all the time we have. Victoria Stattel is a lieutenant commander veteran Navy pilot, served in Afghanistan from January to August 2010. Elaine Donnelly is founder and president of the Center for Military Readiness, and Maren Leed is a senior fellow and director of the New Defense Approaches Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

NNAMDIWe'd like to welcome a new young producer to the show, Liam Frost Sweeney joined us, and joined the world 7:55 p.m., Saturday, January 15. Congratulations Brendan and Lauren. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.