MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show, " connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, America's shifting approach to foreign aid in Africa. We’ll talk with the head of the Millennium Challenge Corporation, but first, our evolving, some would say eroding, political culture. It’s ''Your Turn'' to share your views on the tragic events in Arizona this weekend and what it means for our region.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIYou can call us, 800-443-8850 or go to our website, kojoshow.org. It’s too early to know whether politics played a direct role in the tragic events in Arizona this weekend but we know the backdrop. Last year's elections season was marked by sharp, partisan political attacks, personal attacks. The kind that blur the line between someone's views on a given political issue and that someone's worth as a human being and a member of our society.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIA kind of erosion with many causes and many contributors. What do you think as we try to make sense of this story? Should we all be doing a little soul searching? Do we all need a primer on civics and civility? It's ''Your Turn.'' 800-443-8850. There's a big difference between causation and co-relation. Nobody can really say at this point whether anybody other than the gunmen bears any direct responsibility but it does beg the question, is this a wake-up moment for us all?

MR. KOJO NNAMDIAt a press conference after the Saturday shooting, Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik expressed his own anger and frustration at what he called, the vitriol in America discourse.

MR. CLARENCE DUPNIKI hope that all Americans are saddened and as shocked as we are. And I hope that some of them or most of them are as angry as I am and as a lot of us are. And I think it's time as a country that we need to do a little soul-searching. Because I think that the vitriol that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business and what we see on TV and how our youngsters are being raised. That this has not become the nice United States of America that most of us grew up in.

NNAMDIThat's Pima County Sheriff's Clarence Dupnik after Saturday's shooting. Joining us by telephone is Bob Gibson, Executive Director of the Thomas C. Sorensen Institute for Political Leadership at the University of Virginia. Bob, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. BOB GIBSONAlways good to join you Kojo, especially right after your birthday.

NNAMDIThank you very much for the Happy Birthday wish you sent to me. Bob, today's media environment is really a two-edged sword. On the one hand, we can all be much more plugged in to how laws are made. On the other hand, it means politicians find it often very hard to walk across the aisle if they feel like they're being monitored 24/7 by their own partisans.

NNAMDIAnd we couldn’t help thinking that one of the reasons for the existence for the Thomas C. Sorenson Institute for Political Leadership and your participation in it is to, I guess, accomplish precisely that. Politicians working across the aisle together on various issues. How does the vitriolic rhetoric affect your ability to do that and what do you think about it?

GIBSONWell, as we teach leadership at Sorenson we try to teach working across the aisle and getting to know people on the other side as people, as individuals, and to understand what they're thoughts and feelings are because you can really make a better case for your own side when you sit down and talk with and understand the feelings and thoughts and principles of the other side.

GIBSONSo we in Sorenson believe that everyone can make a positive difference in politics through engagement and words and actions that reflect trust and civility and respect in politics. And I don't think there's enough of that right now and I blame my former profession, the media, for too often engaging in the blame game, the demonization game that has marked our political campaigns in recent years.

NNAMDIIs there a false equivalency going on here or not? It is true to say that basis of both political parties are stoking a climate of fear and hyper-partisanship or in your view as one side doing more than the other or the extremes of both sides?

GIBSONWell, I think it's very difficult to be a moderate and even to reach across the aisle from one side if you're not a moderate to the other. Because of the polarization and the demonization that is going on in our politics today. Part of it is probably related to the exercise that every state will be engaging in this year when they reapportion their legislatures and their congressional seats.

GIBSONSome states losing and some states gaining and, you know, if one party dominates it can be a very highly partisan, political game and which it's very difficult to be seen as reaching out to the other side at times. You know, every Democrat in some highly Democratic districts have to look across his left shoulder for people who might be challenging him from the party's base.

GIBSONSimilarly, Republicans have to look across their right shoulder if they are seen as being too moderate, you know, they have words for that, you know, they call, moderates are people who even talk to the other side are squish. That’s not the kind of dialogue we need. We need more dialogue between people on two sides and accepting the ability of people to sit down and talk to each other.

NNAMDIAlso joining us now by telephone is Congressman Frank Wolf. He is a Republican representing Virginia's 10th District. Congressman Wolf, thank you for joining us.

REP. FRANK WOLFSure, good to be with you.

NNAMDICongressman Wolf, last year Lanny Davis, the former special counsel to President Clinton and Mark Dumas, a prominent conservative evangelical, sponsored an initiative called the Civility Project. They asked all 535 members of Congress and 50 sitting governors to sign onto the following pledge, quoting here, ''I will be civil in my public discourse and behavior. I will be respectful of others whether or not I agree with them and I will stand against incivility when I see it.'' So far, only three members of 535 have signed on, you being one of them.

WOLFAnd what is the question?

NNAMDIThe question is, why did you and why do you think others didn't?

WOLFWell, I think I can answer the first part. I have always attempted to be civil. You know, I'm a conservative member of the House. My best friend in Congress has been a Democratic member, a former Congressman Tony Hall. We’ve been friends for years, really deep and he's probably my best friend in this region.

WOLFSo I've always felt you can be civil and get along with people. You can certainly have differences on issues but how you respond to them, many times we would be together and a vote would take place and I would vote one way and he'd vote just the opposite but we would continue our conversation or do what we were doing together and also perhaps the greatest reason is in the Bible, Jesus talks about doing others as you would have them do unto you.

WOLFAnd I, Francis of Assisi made the comment, he rather see a sermon than hear a sermon. And so I just think it's important for me to treat people with respect and dignity and courtesy even though you may have a different viewpoint and so when I saw it come into my office I didn't give it much thought. I just thought, sounds like a good idea and so I signed it. I don't why, I don't how other people were impacted by it.

NNAMDII remember former Congressman Tom Davis saying that his two best friends in the Congress were Republican Frank Wolf and Democrat Jim Murrain. You don't get a great deal of that anymore do you, Congressman Wolf?

WOLFNo, you don't to be honest with you. No, and I know Tom and Jim are very close. I think they actually teach a course too together at George Mason and they are close and I'm good friend. Tom and I are very close too. I guess you don't for a lot of different reasons. Maybe that may change but members are not in town very, very much.

WOLFIn the old days, you were in more here. You had that opportunity. There were more families that were here. When I would go out at like to Langley High School in a class and maybe four of five students whose parents, mom or dad, were in Congress. You don't really find that because most members on both sides of the aisle are keeping their families back in their congressional districts.

WOLFThirdly, the amount of travel and I don't mean junket size. So let's take the junkets off the board but the amount of travel whether it be to Sudan or whether it be Czech or whether it'd be, has really diminished. And you got to know members when you would take a long trip. If you would fly to Sudan, you know, where's there a civil war. But you'd be together one another, you got to know each other. But, no, I don't think there is a closeness that you had in the past.

WOLFI would invite this though. I think the conference call yesterday where the Republican leadership speaker Banner and a Democratic leadership, a minority leader (unintelligible) That was a very impressive conference call and I guess looking back on it, it would've been great if it could've been broadcast to the entire nation because I think it was very heartwarming to see the response. It opened up with John Larson, the Democratic, their conference chairman starting it and Jeb Hensarling, a Republican chair then, finishing it. So it was pretty bi-partisan thing and I think it would've been good if the whole country could've seen it.

NNAMDICongressman Wolf, I'll have a question about Sudan for you later but for the time being, Bob Gibson, how difficult has it been for you at the Sorenson Institute to bring together politically elected officials from both sides of the aisle given the volatile rhetoric that we've being hearing among other places in the commonwealth of Virginia?

GIBSONWell, we do it all the time at Sorenson, but the problem is that doesn't happen as Congressman Wolf was just mentioning it. It doesn't happen as much in our public life as it once did and I spent 30 years covering the general assembly in Richmond and there used to be a very common appearance of legislatures of both parties going out and talking after hours with each other.

GIBSONAnd now, that's frowned upon by the leadership so it's encouraging to me that there is a -- you know, the response of the congressional leadership in the days after this awful tragedy in Tucson has been, not to quickly assign blame and not to engage in the high partisanship that unfortunately has marred too much of our politically campaigning and too much of our media in recent years.

NNAMDIAgain you can join this conversation. It is ''Your Turn'' by calling 800-443-8850 or by sending us an e-mail to kojo@wamu.org or tweet kojoshow or go into our kojoshow.org. Congressman Wolf, Gabriel Gifford’s is a moderate Democratic and Bob Gibson talked earlier about how moderates in both parties are finding themselves in a bind, targeting by the other party but also constantly worried about being challenged within their own party by people expecting some sort of ideal logical purity.

NNAMDIOne remembers how Senator Joe Lieberman was challenged within his own party and managed to win an election and for those people on the left who supported getting rid of, ''Don't Ask, Don't Tell'' he came through as a leader on that issue. How difficult is it, Congressman Wolf, for moderates?

WOLFWell, I, you know, I can't really answer that. I think each person has to make that judgment. I don’t think you can live your life worrying about whether or not you're going to have a primary or not or you're going to be criticized. I consider myself a conservative member of the House. I have...

NNAMDISome people think of you as a moderate.

WOLFWell, on some issues I may very well be. I take it issue by issue and I think I'm the only member of Congress, Chris Yays used to do it, who, I publish my entire voting record. So if you live in my district or if you don't you can go online and see I how vote on every single issue. But I guess the test is you want to make sure that you feel good about your service.

WOLFSo whenever the time comes that you're no longer here, you know that you are not intimidated, that you did what you thought was the right thing to do. So I had the primary last year and then the person pulled, then I had a primary two years before that. And, you know, we had a primary and I won the primary. So I think you have to live your life -- I mean, our country has very difficult time. We are fundamentally broke. The debt and the deficit is consuming us.

WOLFMany people are beginning to say that if we don't deal with this, America will be in decline. And great nations decline rapidly. And we got to deal with this. So it is so important for our children and our grandchildren, but also for all of us, for you and everyone else. Because if we go into decline, the world will be a much more dangerous place. So if you're here, you ought to do what you really think you ought to be doing. And I think if you're just looking over your shoulder all the time, that's pretty hard to do. Now, sure, there's going to be criticism that comes and -- you know, I don't think I can really speak for other members, I just got to -- if I can do what I think is appropriate in my own life, you know, maybe that's the most that I can actually handle. But I don't know that every member is really worried about a primary or members really worried about...

NNAMDICongressman Frank Wolf is a member of the U.S. House of Representatives. He's a Republican representing Virginia's 10th district. He joins us by telephone along with Bob Gibson, executive director of the Thomas C. Sorenson Institute for Political Leadership at the University of Virginia. It's your turn, Jay, in Salisbury, Md. You're on the air, go ahead please.

JAYHey, yes. Thanks for having me on. I want to make a comment about just some of the rhetoric that were going on during the health care debate. If you took two TVs and you out them right beside one another, took images from the '60s civil rights and you did the same thing with, you know, with the health care debate, it -- and turn the TVs down, they were similar. Similar demographics, same anger, same anger. And I have a daughter who was watching it and she was going through the process of learning about politics and I was trying to explain to her. Dude turned around then she seen a guy at one of Obama's rallies carrying a gun. And she asked me, what he got a gun for? It's a political rally. That kind of stuff affects our kids. They see that and it...

NNAMDIBob Gibson, what do you think -- Bob Gibson, what do you think about that? You mentioned earlier the role of the media. People see these things through the lens of the media.

GIBSONWell, they do. And I think the media is increasingly strident on one side or the other unfortunately, because the traditional, older media pattern of weighing things more carefully with careful editing and trying to include voices from both sides is less and less the rule. And more the rule is, you know, engaging in the extreme dialogue on either side. So that's what you're getting at least on cable television these days is a little bit more of the, you know, he said, she said, attack each other from various perspectives on the right and the left. I think there is an opportunity to take this as a chance for people to rededicate themselves to a more positive dialogue and, you know, threats against public officials are increasing in our country and we've got to turn that around. I mean, there are a lot of issues involved here. There are mental health issues involved here. It's too easy -- how much have we learned since Virginia Tech? How much have we learned about keeping high velocity, multiple round guns out of the hands of people who may be a danger to themselves or others?

NNAMDIOn -- go ahead, please, Congressman Wolf.

WOLFIf I can just comment. There was a lot of very vehement attacks against President Bush. I've seen so many times groups would come in, (unintelligible) would come in and just rip President Bush apart. You recall the full-page ad, I believe, in the Washington Post called the General Betray Us. You remember the attack on General Petraeus. I think -- I forget who brought the ad, I think I know but I won't say because there may not be a backer. So I think you have to look at it from a whole perspective. President Bush was vilified many times. General Petraeus is one of the, you know, leading servicemen was vilified.

WOLFLastly, I think some of the violence in the movies and one these video games are not very positive either. The other night, I went to see a movie. I went to see "The King's Speech." The previews were violent. They were -- I mean, people are shooting people and automobiles turning over and everything else. So, and some of the video games, you know, Grand Theft Auto and many others are very, very violent. And I think we have to kind of get a little bit away from this event to sort of have a better perspective, because obviously this individual was mentally deranged.

NNAMDI"The King's Speech" must have been a welcome relief from the violence for you.

WOLFWell, it was before that. You know, I've been a life-long stutterer and it's a powerful movie. It is just -- if you haven't seen it, you ought to go see it. It's -- but the point, that movie wasn't violent, but the previews of other shows that were coming was very violent.

NNAMDICongressman Wolf, thank you so much for joining us.

WOLFOkay, thank you both.

NNAMDIFrank Wolf is a member of the U.S. House of Representatives.

WOLFOkay, I appreciate it.

NNAMDIHe's a Republican representing Virginia's 10th district. On to Yasmin in Bowie. Yasmin, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

YASMINThank you, Kojo. Thanks for the opportunity. Of course I want to extend my heart-felt, you know, condolences to the families of all those who have been affected by this atrocious act. But as I have this opportunity, I want to share with you and your listeners that in my capacity as chair of a global initiative called Civility Counts, which is to raise awareness about civility and how people can, you know, be more positive in their engagements and their interactions. There is something that we can do. In the previous dialogue, there was mention of what can people do, what can we do to really help to turn this around?

YASMINYou know, we've lived through Virginia Tech and we've lived through the Denver incident and we've lived through so many of these unfortunate situations, but as the Association of Image Consultants International who sponsored the Civility Counts project has decided that we can encourage our members, but first we looked within, to adopt a civility code of conduct, a standard by which we are going to say to the world, this is what we think is appropriate in terms of how we behave, how we communicate, how we dress and how we interact internally with our colleagues, but also externally in our interactions with, you know, our clients and members of the public.

NNAMDIOkay.

YASMINAnd I (unintelligible) so I just wanted to say that everyone can, in very small ways, take the opportunity to take even just small steps like, you know, recognizing each other, paying attention, saying good morning, you know, being sincere about forgiveness. You know, creating a place at the table for others by just being open to their opinions.

NNAMDIOkay, Yasmin, thank you very much. We do have to move on because there are a lot other callers awaiting their turn. Thank you for sharing that with us. Here is Bat in Arlington, VA. Bat, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BATKojo, can you hear me?

NNAMDIYes, we can.

BATYes, and thanks for taking my call. I just think that -- I think that most of your callers are way, way, not getting this. I think that the average citizen is sick and tired of politicians at this point. We're looking around election years and we see jobs gone overseas, we see corporations being able to buy the votes of politicians. Like just the other day, NPR did a study about all the rhetoric that's being bantered about, 80 percent of what's coming to the general public on both parties are lies. And people are seeing this stuff. I mean, while we suffer, the politicians are making -- (unintelligible).

NNAMDIAllow me to go to Bob Gibson on this one. Bob Gibson, have you been able to record a time when the public was happy with its politicians?

GIBSONI think things go in cycles. I think we have cycles where people are relatively satisfied with their political leadership, and then cycles where, especially in a down economy as we've had for the last several years, they are less than enthralled with their political leaders. But I think we don't give enough credence to the power of positive dialogue. You know, I think that the call for civility, I've been trying to think for sometime how we can have a national civility conference in Charlottesville and include the media in this because, you know, the tone that is set in our nation's media is so crucial to how all of us get our news and discuss our political lives with each other. And, you know, there is not a positive civil tone to a lot of what we hear on the airwaves.

NNAMDIBob Gibson, thank you for joining us.

GIBSONThank you very much.

NNAMDIBob is executive director of the Thomas C. Sorensen Institute for Political Leadership at the University of Virginia. The last comment comes from Michael in Ellicott City, Md. Michael, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MICHAELThanks, Kojo. I'm reminded of Barry Goldwater's campaign in 1964 when he said extremism and the pursuit of liberty is no vice. And what it reminds me of is that if someone says something we agreed with or willing to say the other person should not be able to scream in their view. And I think as the American people, we need to be willing to not be extreme in our views in the course of our disagreement, number one. And I think that's the American people's responsibility. Number two, I think this problem goes beyond just politics. If you listen to some sports commentators, particularly with football, they talk about a quarterback having a number of weapons. A player talks about going to war with other players.

NNAMDIOh, football is full of military analogies, so we won't even go there. But, Michael, thank you very much for your call. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we will be talking to the chief executive officer of the Millennium Challenge Corporation, a new strategy for aid to Africa. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.