MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, why Washington has lots of famous art museums but few famous local artists. But first, the countdown to Christmas is on, and for many people, it's a frenzied time of shopping, wrapping, cooking and errand running. For Catholics, however, this holiday season is also bringing a renewal of the culture wars.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIThere's the Pope's recent statement about condoms, for starters, and the controversy over a video depicting ants crawling on a crucifix at the National Portrait Gallery. And then there's the perennial debate playing out this year on New York City billboards about the birth of Jesus and what it really means. It all comes at a time of year that's meant to be one of reflection for Christians. Joining us to discuss this apparent disconnect as well as what these controversies say about the state of the Catholic Church today is Pat McGuire, president of Trinity Washington University. Pat McGuire, good to see you again.

MS. PATRICIA MCGUIREGreat to see you again, Kojo.

NNAMDIAlso joining us in studio is Chester Gillis. Chet Gillis is dean of Georgetown College. He's a professor in the Department of Theology and director of the Program on the Church and Interreligious Dialogue in the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs. Chet Gillis, thank you for joining us.

MR. CHESTER GILLISThank you very much, Kojo.

NNAMDIIt's a conversation that we are happy if you'd like to join it at 800-433-8850 or by going to our website kojoshow.org. The season leading up to Christmas is known as Advent. And for many Christians, it's an increasingly busy time of year. What does time of year mean for you, Pat McGuire?

MCGUIREOh, this is one of the most important times of year to reflect on the meaning of our faith and the meaning of religion in American life, I think. It is a time where growing up, it was also sort of like a mini-Lent, where we were supposed to make some personal sacrifices to get ready for the great celebration of Christmas. And I try to remember that even now, that I should be giving up something or doing something kinder, gentler, more in keeping with the meaning of the Christian faith in the Catholic religion.

NNAMDIChet Gillis, for you?

GILLISIt's a time of waiting for Christians, a time of anticipation of the celebration of the birth of Christ, of course. You're right. Most people don't find time to separate themselves from their daily activities, and then I think Lent, you know -- excuse me -- Advent calls us to do that, to reflect, to step aside for a moment, even if it's only Sunday morning at church or if it's lighting an Advent candle at home and saying a prayer -- something to reflect on what is the meaning of the whole Christmas season. If you're a Christian, it is about the birth of Christ. It's not about the mall.

NNAMDIMany people make an appearance in church at Christmas time and won't be back again until Easter. And a recent Pew survey found that one of every three Americans who are raised Catholic has left the church. Is this mostly a broader societal issue? Or does it also say something specific about the Catholic Church?

GILLISWell, I think it's both. It certainly says something about the Catholic Church. And the fact that people have changed their religious identification is probably not radically different from other traditions. If you look at the Protestant communities, it's a -- is there a lot of shifts in those? There is, for sure. Part of this is due to interreligious marriage or interfaith marriages, and part of this is simply that people are looking for a place where they're spiritually challenged and stimulated. And sometimes, in the Catholic setting, they're not finding that. It depends upon the Parish that you're in, I think. And then they gravitate to some other religious denomination.

NNAMDIPat McGuire.

MCGUIREYeah, I think there's a great search for meaning today, and especially in this country where we celebrate so many different religious traditions. I don't think people who don't go to the Catholic Church on Sunday are irreligious. They may be observing their spirituality in a different way. Now, of course, if they're Catholic, they are supposed to go to Mass on Sunday. I think the church sees this as a huge challenge. You know, here in the archdiocese of Washington, Cardinal Wuerl, our new cardinal...

NNAMDIIndeed.

MCGUIRECardinal Wuerl has a wonderful message that he gives about, come home at Christmas. And I think all of the church leaders are trying to figure what can be done to get Catholics to follow the teaching of the church, which is to come to Mass on Sunday and be part of a spiritual community.

NNAMDIChet Gillis, you have written about the Roman Catholic Church in America. It seems that the church is growing primarily because of new immigrants coming to the country. How is the church changing? And how does it survive as the society around it changes?

GILLISWell, it survives by changing itself. I think, you know, it's not a static entity. Some may think that it's rarefied, and it has a rich tradition, yes. But even traditions are always generating new ways of thinking and news ways of being. In the Catholic context in the United States, you're right that there's a big influx, particularly of -- in the Hispanic community that has been the bulge in Catholic population that has made up for, in large part, those who have migrated elsewhere.

GILLISSo the numbers are fairly stable -- around 65 million Catholics -- but to look underneath the numbers, you see a real shift in certain populations. And part of that is because the Hispanic community has a higher birth rate, for one thing, and a greater loyalty to the church at this point. So the face of the American Catholicism is changing. The other piece that's changing is generational. An older generation pre-Vatican II, and even early Vatican II, many of them are loyalists. The younger generations are -- have less affiliation and less sense of loyalty to institutions in general. And I think the church suffers from that as well.

NNAMDIChester Gillis is dean of Georgetown College. He's a professor in the Department of Theology. He joins us in studio along with Pat McGuire, the president of Trinity Washington University. We're interested in hearing your take on the subject. Call us at 800-433-8850. Send us an email to kojo@wamu.org or a tweet, @kojoshow. Pat McGuire, the head of the Knights of Columbus has a new book out in which he argues that Americans are much less divided than the media portrays us and that we are, by and large, in agreement on a range of moral issues. Would you agree with that?

MCGUIREI think Americans are certainly much less divided than the media portrays us. I think the tendency to go to the most extreme side of any issue and portray the clash is very sexy. It sells newspapers, if you will -- although newspapers aren't doing too well these days, either, so -- but it makes people get on the Internet, register their comments and so forth. I would, however, disagree that we are in agreement on many issues. I think that one of the phenomenons of this information and communication age, the Internet age, is that we are able to express differences of opinion in remarkably new ways.

MCGUIREAnd I am astounded when I go online and see the discussion comments on any given newspaper article about how broad and varied the opinions are about things that I think we should all be agreeing on. I think we have ways of expressing ourselves today that are both good and bad, but an incredible spectrum of opinion.

NNAMDIGood, bad and mostly public.

MCGUIREYes.

NNAMDIIn recent years, the media seemed almost every year to return to this idea of a war on Christmas. This year, the Catholic League and the American Atheists are debating the meaning of Christmas with billboards in the New York area. What do you make of this perennial controversy, Chet Gillis, and how do we move beyond it?

GILLISWell, I'm not sure that we can fully move beyond it. We're -- we live in a multi-religious society, and it is one in which there has been a dominant Christian motif in American culture and in European culture before that. That's less so now. There's a lot more diversity among religions, but that doesn't take away -- there's still the meaning and the event of Christmas as normative for this season for Christians. This is what other religions also celebrate times of the year that are significant. This one happens to be significant to Christians, so it's hard to eliminate that from the equation.

NNAMDIIn your case, Pat McGuire, allow me to just say what some of these billboards are saying here. The billboard by the American Atheists outside the New Jersey entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel reads: You know it's a myth. This season, celebrate reason. The Catholic League's billboard near one of the New York City tunnel entrances reads: You know it's real. This season, celebrate Jesus.

MCGUIREWell, the first thing I'll say is we don't know anything. Faith requires us to accept the faith teaching regardless of what knowledge tells us. That's the difference between faith and reason, is that great zone where we say, I don't know for sure. But I think most Americans -- and this is where I would disagree with those who say you know it's a myth. I think most Americans would disagree with that. I think most Americans do come down on the side of faith. And those of us who feel we have to respect everybody, you know, we can respect our atheist colleagues for saying that they don't believe.

MCGUIREBut I think it's wrong for people to say I should not believe what I believe. That's where I think this controversy becomes both ridiculous and also causes people to take sides. There's nothing wrong with saying the word Christmas, and there's also nothing wrong with saying the word holiday. And I think it is appropriate to be sensitive to all faith traditions without repressing any one of them.

NNAMDIThe other big issue in the news right now is the decision to remove a video depicting ants crawling on a crucifix from a National Portrait Gallery exhibit. What do you think is the right balance between freedom of expression and respecting sacred imagery?

MCGUIREWell, I think, first of all, I'd looked at that video 'cause I was curious about what the controversy was about. And, in fact, the video in its totality is about horrible suffering, which, of course, is what the crucifix is about also. I think that the government should not be regulating how people express themselves. I'm a free-speech advocate. I do think that that we also have an obligation to be respectful of religious icons. In the particular case, I did not think it was disrespectful if religious icon when seen in the totality of the depiction of suffering.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones -- oh, I'm sorry, Chet Gillis. I wanted you to weigh in on the same issue.

GILLISOh, well, it's always controversial when art approaches religion, when they tend to conflict. There should be the possibility for expression in art, and sometimes, art is shocking and jarring. And that's exactly what it's intended to do. I don't think it's intended to offend. It's intended to make a point and make people reflect on it. And I'm sure that's -- I suspect that's what this art was portraying. However, there are great sensitivities for people about art and religious figures -- Jesus being one, Mohammed being another and Moses being another. And so, you know, one has to be very, very sensitive how one portrays this.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones. Here's Duane in Wheaton, Md. Duane, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DUANEThank you. Good afternoon and good afternoon to your guests. I would think that from what I -- what you mentioned earlier, one of the individuals -- persons about people getting older and people changing and leaving the Church. However, from my uneducated view, I don't see how that negates an institution as the Catholic Church so grand and so vast throughout the entire world to use a generational transformation or people coming and going like they're going through a turnstile, not to continue to honor and respect the institutions of the Catholic Church.

GILLISI'm not -- I'm not of no religion, but I do feel that if I had a wish, I would wish to see the Lord and Savior Christ 'cause I could ask him exactly where am I and where am I going? But as far as the depiction of the art and denigration of religious faith, I don't -- I wouldn't take anymore umbrage to what happened at the ant on the crucifix than I would over the rabid anger over the denigration of the prophet Mohammad or any other religious icon. So, in fact, I just feel that -- I do believe. I don't follow religion, but I really wish I could see the Lord and Savior and ask him, exactly where am I going? Thank you and good morning.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Duane. I would say, enough said...

MCGUIREEnough said, yes.

GILLISMm hmm.

NNAMDI...in that situation. We've got to take a short break. When we come back, we will continue this conversation on Catholic issues that are surfacing at a time that is supposed to be one of reflection. We'll still take your calls at 800-433-8850. Or you can go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're talking about some of the issues facing members of the Catholic faith during this time of reflection. Our guests, Pat McGuire, president of Trinity Washington University, and Chester Gillis, Dean of Georgetown College, a professor in the Department of Theology and the director of the Program on the Church and Interreligious Dialogue in the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs. The pope's recent comments suggesting that condom use could be justified in certain circumstances have gotten a lot of attention. What was your response, Chet Gillis, when you heard about the seeming shift in the position from the Vatican?

GILLISWell, it was interesting that the Pope even alluded to this. I was a bit surprised at first. This is in a book in a context of an interview, so it wasn't a pronouncement or a doctrine from the church. But it does indicate an ease in a certain area, where perhaps the lesser of two evils is the one to be preferred. And, obviously, the higher evil is -- transmitting a deadly disease to someone is much more evil perhaps than preventing birth in a particular case.

GILLISI think there are many theologians and ethicists who would agree with this position, and there are many Catholics who would think this is a reasonable position, even if it's a gradualism in ethics. It's something that, I think, most reasonable people would say, that makes sense. And I think that is reflected around the world, actually, in people's reaction to the Pope's comments.

NNAMDIIt's important to point out that the Catholic Church is the biggest provider of AIDS care of the world. The Associated Press recently reported that many Catholic aid workers, especially those in Africa, had already been advocating condom use and distributing condoms to their patients for years. Pat McGuire, more broadly, what are the key issues that you would like to see Pope Benedict address as leader of the Catholic Church?

MCGUIREWell, I think, first and foremost, he's trying to address, but needs to continue to address, the child abuse crisis that the church is still grappling with. I did read the entire interview that he gave to the journalist where the condom issue came up, and it's a fascinating book. I urge people to read the whole thing because he does discuss that in far more detail but also the child abuse crisis. I think part of this problem was declining church attendance and sort of a sense of disaffection among even faithful Catholics. You know, women I know, who are in their later years feeling a sense of loss about the Church, goes directly back to this terrible scandal, which our church leaders have admitted. And yet there's still a sense that they haven't done quite enough. So that's the primary topic.

NNAMDII heard that the Vatican is expected to distribute new guidelines for dealing with these abuse allegations to bishops around the world. Is that something you're anxiously awaiting?

MCGUIREWell, I think new guidelines in, you know, all of that, after the fact that the horse is gone from the barn is good and useful and important. But I think, probably, the primary thing that the leaders have still not acknowledged is the harm done to children. And I think in all of the focus on what priests did and who's being prosecuted and protective measures, the victims are still feeling unaddressed, and that's a terrible issue.

NNAMDIOn to the telephones again. Susan in Herndon, Va. Susan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SUSANYes. Thank you for taking my call. I'm a seventh grade catechist in the Roman Catholic Church, and I just want to comment that I think one of the problems that we're having is we actually even have a bunch of nominal Catholics. And I can say I'm actually one of the more liberal Catholics out there. But we have people who want to pass on the tradition, but they don't necessarily take their children to Mass. They just want them to have the sacraments, and it's more of an identity thing, I think, or something. Or there's some kind of longing going on.

SUSANBut my problem is that I think that we -- that the priests -- and this is related to child abuse and other kind of Church scandals -- I'm not so sure the priests are seen as real shepherds of our faith anymore. And as a result, I think our children are also at a loss in terms of education and shepherding and of what it really means to have a spiritual journey.

NNAMDIChet Gillis.

GILLISI appreciate that comment. In part, this is not necessarily the priests' fault. There simply aren't enough priests to do the kind of ministry that they've been called to. There's a shortage of priests, as you know. And one priest in any parish is probably serving thousands of people, and it's very hard to have a personal relationship with all of those people. He should be a person who's upright in his own life, certainly, and a spiritual model. But the kind of personalism that the church had maybe in the '50s, when there was a church in every block, is not going to be available to the students, to younger people today -- and that's a shame, I must say.

GILLISOn the other hand, there are people like you, who are stepping in -- the laity are taking the mantle and shouldering the burden for education of the next generation. It's a very important role to play. And, I think, in many ways, it is the future of the Church. The young people of the future and those who are training them are people like yourself, and I think that's laudatory.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Susan. We got this e-mail from Beth in D.C. "Why has the Catholic Church become so actively (word?) to the Republican Party? For example, threatening to excommunicate those who vote for Democrats. I know abortion is a huge part of that. But on every single other issue, the GOP seems like the exact wrong choice. For example, where was the Church on health care? Where was the Church on economic justice?" I put this question to you, Pat McGuire, because you have a graduate who is still, technically, the Speaker of the House of Representatives.

MCGUIREShe is the Speaker of the House of Representatives.

NNAMDIAnd a Democrat.

MCGUIREAnd, clearly, a Democrat. And we have many other famous alums who are both Democrats and Republicans. But the reality is that the Catholic Church itself has never said that you can't vote for a Democrat or anything of the kind. The Church's statement on faithful citizenship is much more thoughtful and nuanced than that. However, what we have to be aware of is that there are other groups, outside interest groups, who do not speak for the Church, but who claim to be representing Church position, who issue screeds against people for political reasons. That's point one.

MCGUIREI think, point two, we have to remember that the Church has a broad view of the issues facing Americans today and facing our world today. And while the Church is very clear about issues around abortion, birth control, the beginning of life, the Church is also very clear about issues throughout life. And most recently, the bishops have come out with a very strong statement supporting the DREAM Act to give rights to immigrant children who are not legal. And also they've come out in favor of the START Treaty and the limitation on arms control, which is a long standing issue for them. I think it's impossible to characterize the Church as either Democrat or Republican. The Church is pro-life consistently from cradle to grave and everything in between, and many people don't understand that.

NNAMDIOn now to Pat in -- on Cobb Island, Md. Pat, your turn.

PATSo many things have been said that I agree with. Pat McGuire talked about older women -- which I certainly am -- feeling of sense of loss about the Church, and that's exactly where I am. I'm a liberal Catholic, and I think the Church has -- at least as portrayed in the media, all they talk about are abortion and gay rights and stem cell research. And from all my training -- I went through 16 years of Catholic school. You know, the Church whispers social justice all across the board. You never see that in the newspaper. It's hardly ever talked about. And then...

NNAMDIAllow me to have Chet Gillis respond to that because as Pat is pointing out, a lot of individual priests and bishops across the U.S. speak out pretty strongly on social issues, everything from climate change to the DREAM Act, which would give some undocumented immigrant students the opportunity to enter the military or go to college. How do you see the Catholic Church when -- or how do you think of the Catholic Church when it comes to key issues, key social issues facing the country?

GILLISWell, I think the caller is correct about the social justice and the Gospel calling us to adjust this for all, especially for the weakest in the society and for the poor, where the church has stood up for these people for a millennia. This is -- but the mantra has been kind of drowned out by some of the more prominent so-called social issues, which are really ethical issues. They're issues of life, as Pat has indicated, or same sex marriage. And the bishop's weigh in very heavily and very publicly on these, and sometimes that makes the other teachers in the Church more opaque or in the background.

GILLISAnyone who's been brought up in the Church knows those teachings and knows that we're called to live those teachings and that kind of justice that the Gospel calls us to. But it doesn't get the kind of cache in the news that the more striding issues -- that are really political issues as well as social issues.

NNAMDIAnother -- one area, Pat McGuire that we're unlikely to see any movement from the Vatican is on the ordination of women. The Pope recently telling an interviewer that he, quoting here, "has no authority to ordain women because Jesus chose the form of the priesthood when he chose male apostles." How does that sit with you?

MCGUIREWell, you know, women have had some of the most important roles in the Church. And I always say to my friends who want to talk about women being priests that -- well, that's probably not going to happen in our lifetime or our children's lifetime. But we are the teachers primarily and the ability to teach children and to be the leaders of shaping the spirituality and the intellectual formation of the rising generation is, I think, incredibly powerful. In the new age of the laity that we are in, as Chet referenced earlier, as the number of priests decline, in fact, the role of women is becoming increasingly significant as organizers and leaders of faith communities.

MCGUIREThe old parish structures may be disappearing because they were also largely built around ethnic immigrant identities -- the Irish, the German and so forth. And that's all changed in American life. But the idea of people coming together to pray and worship is quite vibrant, and women are, frankly, in the lead on so much of that in the Church. So I wouldn't see that as a power struggle. I think we need to accept that the role of priest is probably going to remain male for a good long time, but women are very powerful in the Church.

NNAMDIHere is Scott in Washington, D.C. Scott, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SCOTTThanks. I was interested in your guests' comments on -- this is relating to the recent controversy with the art exhibit. I've heard a lot of comparisons of -- depictions of the prophet Muhammad to the depiction of the crucifix. Now, I'm neither a Muslim nor a Catholic, but I try to remain generally informed about other beliefs. In my understanding that Muslims consider any depiction of the prophet to be blasphemous, whereas, obviously, Catholics themselves depict Jesus and use crucifixes, so I guess that's why the guests considered how that fits in the context of the exhibit. But I want -- just wanted their general views on this comparison that's been made a lot lately.

NNAMDIChet Gillis.

GILLISOh, well, you're right. The prophet's not to be, and it's more -- not so much the prophets, partially, but it's more God -- Allah. God's self is not to be depicted. And the Catholic Church has a very rich artistic tradition. I mean, it has been one of the biggest -- the greatest patrons of the arts in all of Western culture. There's no question about that. Some of that art, historically, was probably controversial when it was created, even a long time ago. And it has survived.

GILLISAnd I suspect that the contemporary art, although controversial, in a generation or two may be seen as something that was enlightening and insightful, not necessarily this particular piece -- I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about, in general, the arts and Catholicism are deeply intertwined, deeply intertwined. And I think if you go into a Catholic Church, you know it's a Catholic Church by the statuary and this -- and all of the art that is depicted there.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Scott. Finally, here's Ken in Waldorf, Md. Ken, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KENYes. Thank you for taking my call. I hope you don't hold this against me. I'm a Baptist. But I did my first Master's at Loyola, and I just finished an MD at Harvard Divinity School. But I teach social sciences in a secular university to young people who have a lot of questions. And the way that our young people are educated now is to, really, you know, kind of critique social institutions. But our children are also struggling with religion. I just taught a section on gender and religion a couple of weeks ago.

KENAnd I introduced them through some writings that had a more sophisticated approach to religion and allowed people to struggle with sexuality and their tradition and being out and so on. So a lot of question, I guess, is how do we prepare ministers, priests, so on and so forth to engage these young people that we say we're losing, but they have legitimate questions?

NNAMDIYou know, tomorrow, we'll be having a conversation by the young people, teenagers dealing with gender identification issues, but here's Pat McGuire.

MCGUIREWell, at Trinity, majority of our students are African-American women, and the majority happened to be Baptists, actually, at Trinity, so I can relate to the questioner that way. And, frankly, I find them to be incredibly faith-filled and spiritual and eager to express their spirituality. And they enjoy being at the Catholic college 'cause we support expressions of religion and spirituality. I think what they're searching for are good role models of adult spirituality, adult professional behavior and so forth. And that's where, in today's universe, they've been disappointed by many adults, not just religious leaders but others. So I think we have an obligation to them to work on that.

NNAMDIKen, thank you very much for your call. I'm afraid that's all the time we have. Pat McGuire, thank you for joining us. Pat McGuire is the president of Trinity Washington University. Chet Gillis, thank you for joining us. Chester Gillis is dean of Georgetown College, professor in the Department of Theology and the director of the Program on the Church and Interreligious Dialogue in the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll talk about local artists boosting their profiles and why they're not making more of a national impact. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.