MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.50 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. They are a by-product of American's love affair with cars. We discard an astonishing 300 million tires each year and most of us don't think twice about where they end up. Scrap tires were once one of the biggest landfill problems in the country. They took up a lot of space and were breeding grounds for vermin. Tire fires were common, could burn for days and you couldn't bury tires because the gases they generated can actually carry the buried tires through several feet of earth to the surface.

MR. KOJO NNAMDITo make things even more complicated, scrap tires were considered special waste in many states and couldn't be dumped in landfills with regular trash. But in the 1980s, the picture began to change. Environmental concerns prompted states to ban tires from being landfilled at all, creating a different problem, finding ways to use all those tires that couldn't be thrown away and an industry was born.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIToday, recycled tires are in everything from cement to playgrounds to athletic fields. But some say that in the rush to create a market for scrap tires safety and health concerns are taking a back seat. Joining us to discuss all of this is Michael Blumenthal. He is the vice president of the Rubber Manufacturers Association. Michael Blumenthal, thank you for joining us.

MR. MICHAEL BLUMENTHALThank you.

NNAMDIAlso with us in studio is Elana Schor, staff reporter for Greenwire which is a news service of environment and energy publishing. Elana Schor, thank you for joining us.

MS. ELANA SCHORThanks for having me.

NNAMDIMichael, this industry, recycled tires didn't exist 30 years ago. What had to happen to create it?

BLUMENTHALIn 1985, Minnesota was the first state to enact legislation and regulations dealing with tires. Prior to that, there were no laws, state, federal, local, that managed tires. It was legal, acceptable to put tires into a landfill, to dump them, to make large piles out of them. In '85, Minnesota enacted legislation and the (word?) regulations. They banned tires from landfills. They wanted to help develop the market for scrap tires.

BLUMENTHALThey wanted other uses for them. The basic problem was in 1985 there weren't many, if any, markets for tires. So inadvertently they went from no tires in stockpiles to tending tires in stockpiles in five years because they didn't think to create their markets first.

NNAMDIBut there are still 100 million stockpiled tires in the U.S. What does that mean?

BLUMENTHALActually, the number of tires in stockpiles is slightly less. It's around 80 million tires right now. Once upon a time, EPA said there were between 4 and 5 billion tires, 3 to 4 billion tires in piles. That was an educated guess. In 1994, we did a market survey. We asked all the states how many tires they had in piles. Of all the states, 41 of them got back to us and we were able to extrapolate data and we estimated at the high water mark there were about a billion tires in piles.

BLUMENTHALOver the last 20 years, states have been very active in abating tire piles. And we just finished our last market report. We are proud to say that the states have reduced the number of tires in piles to about 80 million. So that's a 98 percent...

NNAMDIAnd that's essentially because the demand for recycled tires has been going up.

BLUMENTHALActually, they are independent of each other. Most states operated on two different levels. One was trying to create markets for the tires they produced that year and every year. And then they also tried to clean up the stockpiled tires. The end-use markets for tires coming out of the stockpile are very limited. Either they can go to be used as fuel in a kiln to make cement or they can be processed into a (word?) and used for what we call -- as tire-derived aggregate. Those are the only two markets that really lend themselves to tires in piles because they've been sitting out in the environment.

BLUMENTHALThey're covered with dirt, grit, what have you and so not really suitable for the highest end value uses for tires. So they had to work on a dual-track and that's typically how the states dealt with it.

NNAMDIElana Schor, some say the recycled tire business is difficult to regulate because the state and federal environmental agencies helped in a way to create the whole industry.

SCHORWell, that's one factor that makes it difficult to regulate. The other factor is that there are so many potential compounds that could be produced by recycled tires, especially when they're reconstituted into, say, you know, cushioning for an artificial turf field or for a playground. You know, everybody likes the fact that they are ecological, you know. They don't need water. They're ecologically, in a sense, almost preferable on some levels, but the aftereffects of that on children's health and people's health who are exposed are very complicated. They involve a lot of different overlapping jurisdictions as we say.

NNAMDIIt's mostly up to the states to oversee programs. Is that not correct?

BLUMENTHALThat is correct. Right now, all 50 states have some form of regulations on tires. There are no federal regulations on tires, but I disagree with the last statement about what is and isn't in tires and the complexities. I think, too, what is not well understood is the polymer chemistry that takes place. A lot of materials go into making...

NNAMDIAnd we're going to get to that later during the course of the broadcast. We're talking with Michael Blumenthal. He is the vice president of the Rubber Manufacturers Association allegedly knowing more about tires than just about anyone else on the planet. He joins us in studio along with Elana Schor, staff reporter for Greenwire, a news service of environment and energy publishing. And speaking of state regulations, joining us now by telephone from Baltimore is Hilary Miller, program manager for the Technical Services and Operations Program in the Maryland Department of the Environment's Land Management Administration. Hilary Miller, thank you for joining us.

MS. HILARY MILLERThank you for asking the department to participate.

NNAMDIThe State of Maryland has had a scrap tire program since 1992. Tell us about it.

MILLEROur scrap tire program regulates and licenses scrap tire haulers and scrap tire collection facilities. We also encourage private businesses and private property owners to clean up their scrap tire piles. And if they're unable or unwilling to, then the state utilizes the scrap tire fund to clean up large scrap tire stockpiles.

NNAMDIAnd the scrap tire fund, there's a fee on new tires in Maryland that helps to pay for the program?

MILLERThat's correct. Currently, it is 80 cents per new tire sold in the state.

NNAMDIIllegal tire dumps were and still are a problem and the money collected helps to clean up those dumps. Is that correct?

MILLERThat’s correct.

NNAMDIHow does Maryland use scrap tires?

MILLERMaryland uses scrap tires in a number of different ways. The state has supported the construction of scrap tire playgrounds at schools throughout the state. It has supported the construction of scrap tire playgrounds in state parks. It has also supported construction of alternative roadways utilizing scrap tires in asphalt applications, in walking paths at various parks and municipal locations. We've supported various innovative uses of tires in landfill applications, sound barriers along roadways and other places. We've also supported the construction of athletic fields which utilize crumb rubber as part of their synthetic turf.

NNAMDII want to get back to rubberized asphalt for a second. It's another application you mentioned that Maryland has been working on, but apparently not all local governments are interested. Why is that?

MILLERI believe that part of the reason why local governments have not been interested in the past is because they didn't understand the application, didn't understand the engineering behind the construction of rubberized asphalt, roadways and they hadn't seen any in the state in place. This spring, we supported the application of rubberized asphalt on the Eastern shore and invited several local governments and state highways administrations to come and view the actual installation of the rubberized asphalt and they were all favorably impressed with it.

MILLERSo I think as the news of how well the installation goes and how the installation withstands road traffic and that sort of thing, which is part of what we're studying, I think that the public and industry will come to realize that it can be useful in a number of applications.

NNAMDIIt's a conversation on recycled tires. You're invited to join the conversation. Call us at 800-433-8850. What do you think we should do with all those used tires, 800-433-8850 or go to our website at kojoshow.org and make a comment or ask a question. Hilary Miller, it's my understanding that there are also possibilities for other engineering projects involving used tires like highway barriers?

MILLERYes. Several years ago, the state funded a project for highway barriers, the use of scrap tires in some highway barriers on I95 near Baltimore and to date we have seen no problems with those installations.

NNAMDIWell, it's a tough time budget-wise in Maryland and everywhere else and fewer people are replacing tires in a recession. So I guess the state is getting less fees? How has that affected the program?

MILLERIt has affected the program in the last two to two and a half years. The revenue has reduced by a half a million to a million in the last three years, per year. That has very, very definitely impacted the number of projects that we've been doing. We've really had just enough money to fund a couple of very large scrap tire cleanups.

NNAMDIHas Maryland looked into the environmental and safety of scrap tires being reused?

MILLERYes. We work with the Maryland Environmental Service to contract out some research projects and some construction projects and they've done some research and we keep in touch with the various entities that have been doing the research to ensure that the applications that we are using are not creating a public health or environmental hazard. That's why we do monitoring of the projects to ensure that there's no runoff from the scrap tires, that the engineering applications are strong, are working and do not fail, for example, in landfill construction. And we just try to keep up with the latest information regarding public health and environmental impacts as well as generating our own research.

NNAMDIHilary Miller, thank you for joining us.

MILLERSure. Thank you.

NNAMDIHilary Miller is the program manager for the Technical Services and Operations Program in the Maryland Department of the Environment's Land Management Administration. We're talking about the use of recycled tires. Elana Schor, the Environmental Protection Agency is very invested in the recycling of the tires and how they categorize them as waste is going to affect that. Are there competing interests within the agency at work here?

SCHORIn terms of how to categorize them as waste?

NNAMDIUm-hum.

SCHORI mean, there always are competing interests within an agency. I doubt that they would ever be in line for designation as something, like, hazardous. I mean, they're so widely used and the bulk of studies have shown there's predominately no risk from them. So as far as the nitty gritty of characterizing them, I would say that's less of a controversy within the agency than the children's health implications, which were explored in a 2009 study by the agency.

NNAMDIChildren's health implications are something we are going to get into in a little while, but first, let's go to the telephones and talk to Gary in Washington, D.C. Gary, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

GARYHi. Ya'll have been talking about the states. But I live in the District of Columbia and since this is a District of Columbia radio station, I want to know, what is the specific problems that we have here in the district, does the district have any laws like the 50 states do regarding recycled tires? And in my community, when they're used it seems like playgrounds or in asphalt and stuff, what do we do with those products when they wear out? Do they just go to the landfill with our tires still in them?

NNAMDIDo you have any idea, Elana Schor, of what the regulations are in the District of Columbia regarding used tires?

SCHORI'm only aware of the federal regulations as a federal reporter, but perhaps Mr. Blumenthal is aware of this state?

NNAMDIMichael Blumenthal?

BLUMENTHALThank you. The District of Columbia does not have a set of regulations although about 12 years ago they did pass an ordinance here that put a fee onto the sale of tires in the district, but they never implemented that fee. So basically the tires in the district are picked up by the industry either out of Maryland or out of Virginia.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Gary. Before we go to a break, it's important for us, I guess, Michael Blumenthal, to talk about the main uses of recycled tires today.

BLUMENTHALThank you. The uses for tires, the number one market is as tire derived fuel. It's the largest, it's the oldest market. It was the first market, not here, not just here but around the world.

NNAMDITire derived fuel?

BLUMENTHALTire derived fuel. They use tires just like they use coal. Tires have a lot of heat value. They have greater heating value than coal, 25 percent greater heating value than coal. They are basically a petrol material, 88 percent of the tire is hydrogen-oxygen and carbon. So they are a fuel just like coal. It is the largest market. Cement kilns, pulp and paper mills, power plants, industrial boilers all make use of tires as fuel.

BLUMENTHALSecond largest market is something we call ground rubber. They take a tire, they grind it down to a fine powder and that can go into a your asphalt. It goes into playgrounds, it goes into running tracks, sports surfacing, new products, new tires. there's a growing list of products that contain ground rubber in it. Third major market is what we refer to as tire derived aggregate. It's been around since 1992. You can take a four by four inch square of rubber or a little bit larger, a six by six square of rubber and use it in lieu of conventional construction material, sand, rock, stone, fill, things like that. It makes a good lightweight backfill road embankment and as you heard it can be used in landfill construction.

NNAMDIGot to take a short break. When we come back if you have calls stay on the line. We will get to your call. We're discussing recycled tires. The number's 800-433-8850. You can send e-mail to kojo@wamu.org. Are you concerned about recycled tires on playgrounds and athletic fields or do you think they are safe? You can also send us a tweet at kojoshow or go to our website kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back to our conversation on recycled tires. we're talking with Elana Schor. she's a staff reporter for Greenwire, a news service of environment and energy publishing. Also joining us in studio is Michael Blumenthal, Vice-president of the Rubber Manufacturer's Association. we're taking your calls at 800-433-8850. before we find out a little more about tires from you, Michael Blumenthal, Elana, one issue seems to be as far as the EPA is concerned that recycled tires are something of an orphan of the agency because they don't fall under one department. They apparently end up falling under several departments, how come?

SCHORExactly. That was I was mentioning earlier about the overlapping jurisdictions, Kojo. There's a little bit that deals with solid waste and emergency response, in terms of how they're processed in landfills. There's a bit that deals with children's health and the EPA actually has an office of children's health that has conducted some of the playground work.

SCHORThere is also a chemicals component and the EPA has a separate office that looks at, you know, the evolving science about chemicals regulation and how different, what we call volatile organic compounds. It might be, how they might be affecting kids who breathe them in, people who breathe them in. And, you know, all of these are potential byproducts of recycling tires. It doesn't always happen. I mean, every tire is different as Mr. Blumenthal can certainly attest.

NNAMDIIn fact, Mr. Blumenthal, outside of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon, what's in a typical car tire?

BLUMENTHALSeries of petrol chemicals, synthetic rubber, natural rubber, oils, extender oils.

NNAMDIThe average tire has around 2.5 gallons of oil in it?

BLUMENTHALIf you take the petrol chemicals and revert them back to oil that sounds about right.

NNAMDIAnd most tires do include some natural rubber from the rubber tree plant?

BLUMENTHALThat is correct. Most tires do, depending on the type of tire it can contain more or less. Aircraft tires, for example, are mostly natural rubber. Truck tires have a higher percentage of natural rubber than passenger, light truck tires. Just depends on the tire and the type of application that it is used for.

NNAMDIIt's a crucial moment for the industry because the EPA is about to decide whether crap tires are considered a fuel or a solid waste. Why is that important?

SCHORWell, because it completely changes how they might be regulated and the EPA is preparing to issue broad carbon emissions regulations in the absence of congressional action on climate change. That could seriously affect the controls for the industry in terms of how they can use tires. All that depends on how they're first defined.

NNAMDISo this is a crucial moment for the industry, Michael Blumenthal?

BLUMENTHALIt is but only in the sense of whether tires are used for fuel or not. The pending definitions are only for the purposes of the clean air act. It will have no bearing on the use of tires in any other applications. So it needs to be kept in perspective.

BLUMENTHALHave a lot of questions and comments from our listeners that I'd like to get to so I will start with Diana in Potomac, Md. Diana, you're on the air, go ahead please.

DIANAHi Kojo, thanks for taking the call. I'm really concerned of the direction this conversation is taking. Even the reporter seems to be rolling along with it. So from the tire industry my particular concern relates to artificial turf fields and the fact that those fields go regularly to 150, 180 degrees on a 90-degree day. they're hotter than asphalt. They regularly have runoff problems. They have to be replaced six to eight years which none of the NCPS schools or parking planning in Montgomery County, which is where I live, nobody's budgeting for it.

DIANAAnd so if we think we have structural deficits now and all these fields are so beautiful now when they're new, the folks who voted them in and paid for them with our tax dollars are going to be gone, moved on by the time these fields have to be replaced. They won't have been maintained. Yeah, they don't have to be mowed but the stuff has to be groomed, it has be cleaned.

DIANAThey, it doesn't, you can't get water going through it because their impervious. It's rocks and sand covered by tires which are full of heavy metals and volatile organic compounds, you heat it up to 200 degrees and tell your kids to run on it and breathe deeply, please, while you're running. there's so many, there's a great website called Synturf, synturf.org with tons of resources on why it's dangerous, why it's a bad idea and how to properly grow organic, natural turf fields that help our water quality and don't, basically you're creating another parking lot and you're asking your kids to run on it...

NNAMDIDiana, you shouldn't...

DIANA...blood doesn't go through, the gum doesn't come off. I mean, you put your, you throw a ball out there and your pet's salvia gets on it and the next he picks up the ball guess what's in his mouth. It comes homes in the kid’s eyebrows and their shoes and their mouths and their noses, their cuts and we're not having an honest discussion.

NNAMDIYes, we will be having a more honest discussion than we're now having Diana, because later in the broadcast we'll be joined by David Brown. He's a public health toxicologist based in Westport and all of the specific points you made about tires in athletic fields are questions we will be raising with David Brown and he will be responding to them as a toxicologist but in the meantime allow me to have Michael Blumenthal mount his defense. But please, keep listening.

BLUMENTHALThank you. There are a number of different issues there. First off, whether a synthetic field has tire rubber as the base material or not they do heat up. So it's not just the rubber that is at issue. A lot of the problems have been focused around the artificial grass that is used and that is what heats up not necessarily the base material.

BLUMENTHALAs far as some of the other things you raised about the volatile organic compounds, there have been a series of studies here in the U.S. and more so in Europe looking precisely at these issues. What will volatilize off of tires and they have found that indoor, outdoor applications, they haven't discovered any risk factors here. As they say, it is all within acceptable risk limits. You also have to consider that the disease transmission has been lower in the artificial surfaces especially with the rubber than in the natural surfaces. MRSA is much lower. There's a study done out of Penn State that can verify that.

NNAMDIElana Schor?

SCHORI also wanted to remind Diana that we haven't really gotten into the nitty-gritty of the children's health concerns and, you know, far from rolling along with Mr. Blumenthal I just want to counter that, you know, there have been studies that have shown a significant risk to kids health from volatilized compounds from these tires. And there have also been studies that have examined the heating up factor she mentioned that have found no extra risk.

SCHORSo, I mean, science does rarely give us a certain conclusion one way or the other but, you know, the fact is the EPA has only studied this on a limited basis and to be frank, we just don't know.

NNAMDIAnd Diana we, as I said, we will be covering this with David Brown. He's coming online very shortly and we know that synthetic turf is controversial topic right here in Montgomery County and as we pointed out, you're calling from Potomac, Md. part of Montgomery County. Here is Michael Blumenthal.

BLUMENTHALThe other thing, they keep on mentioning about the EPA and the child's welfare, and yes they do have an office there. And back in June they held a meeting with a number of states and federal agencies in New York and they were looking at a series of questions. What is the data about tires relative to children's health? Are there any data gaps?

BLUMENTHALYou know, EPA had done a study, I think it was last year and they were looking to do a follow-up report and they were looking for data gaps. At the end of this meeting in June, they ended the meeting after reviewing the reports from California, from New York State, New York City, Connecticut, California and probably from Europe and concluded that there were no data gaps and they have pretty much dropped this as an issue.

BLUMENTHALSo, you know, you keep raising the point about children's health and EPA office. They have looked at it, they vetted it, they've asked the questions, they were satisfied and they said and their reaction is, the issue has been looked at, the answers are out there. There are no data gaps and they're not doing any more projects here.

NNAMDIDavid Brown is with us by telephone. He joins from Westport, Conn. He's a public health toxicologist. David Brown, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. DAVID BROWNYou're welcome. I'm pleased to be with you.

NNAMDIYou have joined the conversation already taking place about health and environmental questions around recycling scrap tires into playgrounds and athletic fields. What are some of the substances in tires that are of concern?

BROWNWell, there's a variety of substances in tires of concern. The tire carbons, black carbon, is of concern. There are volatile organics that of concern. The basic problem with tires is that they're different. The idea that tire is a constant device or a constant product is put into fields is just not correct. There have been studies done in Europe and Michael is right. There's studies have been done in California and otherwise.

BROWNBut if you actually go and look at those studies which is what we did at Environment and Human Health and we decided the question was brought to us by three women in Westport, who were wondering if it was safe to have their children play on these tires, on these fields and we looked at them and we decided that, I had worked at ATSDR at the Center for Disease Control and Prevention and we said, we will just examine that the way the ATSDR would examine it. And we went back and looked at studies we found that, well there were studies in Europe and studies in the United States, that each one, if you look at it had a very narrow focus

BROWNIn fact I'm not sure EPA is thinking because there are thousands of fields in Connecticut, thousands of fields in New England and Connecticut and relatively few fields have been measured for anything and those that have been measured have actually found that there were carcinogens and other compounds that were released, that were in the crumb rubber and some of which were released into the air, not the least of which was the dust that was present playing on these fields.

NNAMDIBut David Brown, one of the problems, one of the issues seems to be that most research for health and safety risks focuses on a specific chemical like lead or benzene and because tires as, I think you already pointed out, come from so many different sources and can be so different and are made up of so many compounds it's apparently difficult to isolate the effects?

BROWNYeah, that's correct. That's why we use the ATSDR approach which first asked, what are the compounds in the tire in the product that we're looking at? And what do we know about what those compounds are capable of doing? That's a little different from a risk assessment that says, let's look at Benz sol thiaisol (sp?) and see what Benzosol thiaisoles and do alone. When we looked at the tires, the products that were in tires, we found that some did in fact have standards for some purposes and Michael's right, in some cases those standards were not exceeded but the standards weren't focused at children either.

BROWNBut more of the products had no standard at all. Some of the products had never been tested for anything. So as we began to look the studies, we went back and reviewed each study and said, would this study adequately cover all the risks that would possibly affect a child who was on a field and our conclusion was that they didn't. we didn't conclude that they were hazardous so as much as we concluded there just wasn't enough information to make the answer based on the toxicology data that had been collected by the industry.

BROWNWe know that the tire industry as an industry on the manufacturer of tires that there are, there have been high rates of cancer. There have been respiratory disease and there's also been neurological disease in the factories. But we, and we know that one company that I've found, I've reviewed all of the literature in the world but prior to 2006 there was one study that was actually done in Taiwan that looked at the preparation of the crumb rubber and the exposure in workers and there were exposures there. But to conclude that we know everything that there is to know about these based on the few risk assessments that have been done in the world is really incorrect.

NNAMDIAnd, Elana Schor, what do you see in the EPA's position on all of this?

SCHORWell, Mr. Blumenthal may certainly be correct that the most recent meetings have resulted in a kum-ba-yah moment but the press isn't aware of this at this point. I mean, the study referenced from last year was conducted in four states. The EPA publicly cautioned this is very limited and these sites were chosen because literally they were close to the lab not because they were necessarily the sites for the highest exposure or the biggest other environmental risk factor.

SCHORSo, I mean, I have to side with Mr. Brown just in the sense we don't know a lot more than we know about the children's health aspect of this and on the point of the various compounds and the different natures of every tire, what EPA did say is we have isolated at least 30 instances of compounds that can be found in some tires, maybe not all. They include, you know, benzene, aniline, acetone, latex, lead, chromium, cobalt.

SCHORI mean, think names that sound just terrifying probably for a parent but the tricky part here is all these chemicals are being out there at once, you know, and our children and the cumulative exposure is very difficult to measure. Tiny, tiny exposures to a lot of things.

NNAMDIVery difficult to measure which may provide the answer to my next question. Michael Blumenthal, you were going to say something anyway. Some people are asking why used tires are ending up in children's playgrounds and athletic fields before testing was done?

BLUMENTHALI'm not sure was done before testing was done but I can tell you rubber is the safest thing a children can fall onto. That's not our conclusion. There are several major institutions that have looked at that. It is simply the safest thing that a child can fall onto. It is in synthetic turf, it's the best base material that is out there. But I have to go back to one point is that a lot of people, you know, they -- Mr. Brown talked about VOC's and carbon black.

BLUMENTHALThere is carbon black in tires. Probably a third of the tire is made from carbon black, but it's not available. When you compound a tire and you make the tire, the various components blend into each other creating a stable new material, which we know as tire rubber. The materials that they're talking about are not bio of -- they're not bio available and I think that's been -- that's been proven out there.

BLUMENTHALAlso, the folks at EHHI, you know, they came out with this report a number of years ago. There was a peer review document of that and the peer review document showed that they didn't follow standard scientific protocol. Their conclusions were flawed. I think if you put -- if you look at the weight of evidence that is out there, we did a study on all the different reports out there. There are 126 reports that support what we're saying.

BLUMENTHALThere's one report that says that there's a problem. I think the word of evidence that's out there, the...

NNAMDII guess the most important part of that statement, though, is that's out there. The weight of evidence that's out there. What I seem to be hearing, both from David Brown and from Elana Schor, is that we certainly await the results of more testing and more evidence before we can be absolutely sure.

SCHORCertainly. And, I mean, frankly, I'm aware of two state studies for whatever it's worth, more than Mr. Blumenthal's one that raise questions. I mean, not necessarily significant questions.

BLUMENTHALWhich states?

SCHORNew Jersey, 2007, they said, you know, between six and twelve percent of kids are -- have a dermal allergy to rubber. So maybe it's not even an inhalation risk that we should be thinking about, it's the fact that these kids could have a skin reaction to it. I mean, so -- and then there's -- there was another study in Connecticut, I -- it sounds like Mr. Brown is familiar with perhaps this study, that examined tire crumb and found a risk of it leaching and volatilizing.

SCHORSo there's two right there. But again, you know, sometimes comparing these studies is apples to oranges, and definitely more would be needed.

NNAMDIDavid Brown, you get the last comment in this phase of our conversation.

BROWNOkay. Well, it's -- there is no peer review that -- that was not done by industry or our study. But our study basically concluded that we need a moratorium on using this material before we can move forward. Because children are getting exposed. The material is bio available as was shown in the California study. There is a study that says it was not bio available, that was done by dropping it in acid.

BROWNMost of the work that we saw was not up to the quality needed, which is why we concluded that it was necessary to develop a quality systematic organized approach to evaluating the safety of these devices. In point of fact, the question that we were asked by (word?) people, is it safe for our children to play on this -- these fields when the child was recovering from -- had recovered from cancer and was in remission.

BROWNThe answer we could give them was we don't know. There isn't enough information about it and the information that is there is really very, very weak. If you look at our report, we actually go through each of the studies and explain where they failed to measure up to what we need. We're not concluding that there is injuries that are occurring from the toxins, but we're saying there are exposures to toxins.

BROWNYou don't know what the toxins do to people because the research has never been done. But there is enormous amounts of information...

NNAMDIDavid...

BROWN….and the Connecticut study that you just finished is -- actually shows that the more you play on a field, the higher the exposures are. And the Connecticut health department decided those risks were not de minimis, but its review panel thought it would create too much financial unrest if that result was out. And so that asked them to change it.

NNAMDIDavid Brown, Elana Schor, are there any studies in the works going forward that we can be looking forward to that will be more conclusive about this? First you, David.

BROWNI don't know of any that are going forward because as Michael said, EPA has decided that they're safe and that there isn't any more research needed. But EPA didn't contact us about this report. It's Dr. Brown by the way. I'm a public health toxicologist and I am not sure that there are any studies going forward, largely because industry doesn't want any studies to go forward.

NNAMDIYour turn, Michael Blumenthal.

BLUMENTHALIn the state of California...

NNAMDIAre you reluctant to see other studies go forward?

BLUMENTHALNo. I have no problem with other studies going forward. In the state of California, they are continuing to look at this issue, and industry doesn't have a problem with these studies. The problem we have is for -- for basically not good science being used. I think that if you look at what's being done around the world, there is ample data out there. You know, people who don't want to believe won't believe.

BLUMENTHALAnd yes, tires are manmade, they're different, they come off automobiles. They're used -- people to play on asphalt or stone. That's acceptable because you've always done that. But there are new applications out there, and what we're finding is, and quite honestly if EPA does cause a reduction in tires being used as fuel, and if the popularity contest gets out there and people say, oh, we shouldn't use rubber for playgrounds, we shouldn’t use rubber for turf, I would be hard pressed to figure out what we will be doing with tires.

BLUMENTHALWe'll be going back to the bad old days when tires were being dumped, and you have to deal with tire fires, and you have to deal with mosquito-borne issues. And the cost of picking them up. So I fail to see where the positive input has come from.

NNAMDIElana Schor, where do you see this going in terms of research?

SCHORWell, you know, as we started out saying, the states really are the hotbed for research like that. And if the EPA indeed has shut the door on this -- which, as I said, they have not publicly released any statement on that. I have no doubt that Mr. Brown and Mr. Blumenthal, you know, sometimes were plugged in in different ways. You know, states are always getting kind of interested and reinterested in these issues.

SCHORAnd perhaps Maryland will be the next hotbed given, you know, local anxieties like Diana's.

NNAMDIDavid Brown, thank you for joining us.

BROWNYou're welcome.

NNAMDIDr. Brown is a public health toxicologist based in Westport, Connecticut. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, if you have already called, stay on the line. If the lines are busy, go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there or send us a tweet @kojoshow. We're discussing recycled tires. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe are talking about the uses for recycled tires and some of the environmental and health issues being raised. We're talking with Michael Blumenthal. He is vice president of the Rubber Manufacturer's Association. He joins us in studio along with Elana Schor, staff reporter for Greenwire, a new service of environment and energy publishing. Here is Paul in Stephens City, Va. Paul, your turn. Go ahead, please.

PAULYes. I just wanted to let you know that I am a former employee with the Department of Energy for the Office of Intelligence, and we had a really neat technology called plasma gasification. And currently, it's being used in Baghdad within the green zone to process garbage into electricity. And using this technology is basically like a super powerful incinerator and it uses a heliarc of 2,000 degrees and breaks down every chemical compound, down to its most elemental parts.

PAULSo it would be, you know, break it down to hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and a byproduct of this is, you know, hydrogen and oxygen, which is reformed with electrolysis to create both water and electricity. This would be a domestic power source and chemical free, carcinogen free, and I really think that you guys should look into that technology.

PAULIt's on Wikipedia. There's six power plants right now using it. It's plasma gasification. Zero health issues and a power source. And that way you can actually destroy the tires completely. It is also used to destroy nerve gas and chemical agents. I just wanted to share that technology.

NNAMDIMichael Blumenthal, you're clearly familiar with the technology. What do you think about its use for the absolute final destruction of tires?

BLUMENTHALWell, everything thing he said is absolutely correct. There have been two or three efforts to bring this to the commercial state. They haven't succeeded, primary due to economics. It's not the technology, per se, but it's the economics of the marketplace that has held this technology back.

NNAMDIThank you for your call, Paul. Here is Bill in Alexandria, Va. Bill, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BILLHi. I just -- my apologies if this has already been discussed, but there's, you know, obviously lots of talk here about uses for recycled tires and possible consequences thereof. It strikes me that in the future decades, you know, as we move away from oil, a primary ingredient of tires, that there's going to have to be a way to make tires that doesn't use oil. So I was wondering if people...

NNAMDII'm glad you brought that up because there are a number of tire companies that are looking to the future in developing tires like things from sunflower oil and orange peels. Can you, Michael Blumenthal tell us something about those efforts?

BLUMENTHALSure. It's not their -- they're not looking at it, they are currently doing it. A couple of tire companies, Yokohama and Michelin, have been -- have been using the non-oil sources for making the synthetic rubber for a number of years. Most of the major tire companies are looking to move away from oil-based, byproducts to make tires.

BLUMENTHALTwo basic reasons. One, the supply of oil at some point in time is going to dwindle, and two, the price keeps on going up. Tire manufacturers, in their effort to keep the costs down, but still produce a high quality safe product, are looking at alternatives to make the tires, and these organic products are certainly being used.

NNAMDIWell, a lot of people might think that these green alternative tires would not be as strong or perform as well, but it's my understanding, in fact, some are already high-end racing tires.

BLUMENTHALHigh-end racing tires. Understand one thing. Tires are made to be safe. I don't care who makes them of our eight members, tires, first and foremost, are safe. There's no compromise whatsoever. There's no cost cutting, no corner cutting. Tires have to be safe. That is as simple as it gets. Then they're built to perform. So whether they use orange peels or sunflower oil or they use a germ that they're going to -- or a bacteria they're going to make into a product and -- and get some other products out of that, they're all made to surpass federal safety standards. It's as simple as it is.

NNAMDIWe got an e-mail from Melanie who says, "Great. Recycle tires. But as a parent of a child using a recycled tire playground, anything light colored, shoes, socks, et cetera, becomes stained gray. What makes a tire black?"

BLUMENTHALWell, base -- there are two components that make tires black. One is the carbon black and two is all the synthetic oils that are in it that is the basic color. The gray -- I'm not too sure about what -- what the industry is trying to do is, they're moving away from having any kind of dust in the playground cover. It's the dust that gets onto the socks and shoes. I can tell you 17 years ago, my daughter played on a rubber playground, we insisted.

BLUMENTHALAnd, yeah, it does -- if it has dust in it, the dust will get on you. But the trend -- the ASTM specs are moving away from dust. That problem should be less in the future.

NNAMDIBecause, Elana Schor, Melanie's real concern is okay, they become gray, tires break down. So what compounds are released? How about direct contact with the skin? Again, we await more research.

SCHORWell, indeed, you know. And Mr. Blumenthal would be best equipped to say whether indeed the dusts are becoming less and less a factor for playgrounds, but, you know, there's dermal and there's inhalation. So another thing that kids always do is touch something and put their fingers in their mouths, you know. So that could be a third pathway of exposure.

SCHORI mean, the studies I was able to review on the state level showed that dermal is potentially the most proven, in the sense that if you're allergic to rubber you're allergic to rubber. So if you carry that home, your kid might have a reaction. But, you know, the others are the question marks.

NNAMDIHere is Jeremy in Washington DC. Jeremy, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JEREMYHi, Kojo. How are you?

NNAMDII'm well.

JEREMYThanks for taking my call. I was curious as to what the implications are for the capture and recycling of other manmade products, of the what we're seeing in the kind of regulatory environment with tires, whether that's going to imply with things like batteries and kind of other things as we encourage people to recycle and reuse and create new value added products from what used to be considered waste. What are looking at and what can we learn from the experience of the tire manufacturers?

NNAMDIElana Schor?

SCHORWell, I can say, one big hot spot for chemical-minded folks is the recycling of e-waste, your cell phones which include some batteries with some fairly nasty compounds in them. Your Blackberries, your computers and, you know, there's a convention called the Basel Convention, which is an international treaty in the kind of responsibly disposing of these things when we're done with them. And, you know, the U.S. isn't necessarily a formal signatory, but is abiding by it in a lot of ways.

SCHORFor all intents and purposes, we're moving towards full compliance with Basel and really, the Obama administration has focused on e-waste in some good ways. So we can see some advances.

NNAMDIMichael?

BLUMENTHALLead acid car batteries are the pyridine. 99.999 percent of all lead-acid batteries are collected and recycled. That is our models we're trying to get to. Waste oil is the other one that is automotive related. Most of your auto shops and retail tire outlets will accept your waste oil for free I think. Those are the two that I'm most familiar with. I mean, we can get off track and, you know, talk about everything else, but...

NNAMDIWell, I'm afraid there's nothing else we can talk about because we have run out of time. Michael Blumenthal is the vice president of the Rubber Manufacturer's Association. Thank you for joining us.

BLUMENTHALThank you.

NNAMDIElana Schor is a staff reporter for Greenwire, a new service of environment and energy publishing. Thank you for joining us.

SCHORThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDI"The Kojo Nnamdi Show" is produced by Diane Vogel, Brendan Sweeney, Tara Boyle, Michael Martinez, and Ingalisa Schrobsdorff, with assistance from Kathy Goldgeier and Elizabeth Weinstein. Diane Vogel is the managing producer. Our engineer today, Andrew Chadwick. Dorie Anisman is on the phones. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.