MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast, Pulitzer Prize-winning author Alice Walker overcoming grief with poetry and with furious dancing. But first, it was just over a century ago on a winter day in 1909 that African-American civil rights activist W.E.B. Dubois, Ida B. Wells and others gathered with a group of white liberals to decry the horrific practice of lynching. The group of 60 people formed the fledging membership of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People or NAACP.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIIts goal was and still is to ensure the political, educational, social and economic equality of U.S. minority groups and to eliminate race prejudice. But 100 years on, the NAACP is facing a bit of an identity crisis. The organization finds itself in political crosshairs as issues like gay rights and immigration take center stage on the national agenda. Embracing these modern issues has come at a cost. Membership is down and some even say the group has lost the focus it had during the civil rights era.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIAt the helm of the NAACP is Benjamin Jealous, a relatively fresh face who is embracing this venerable organization and the modern challenges that come with it in a society that, in some circles, is referred to as post-racial. Benjamin Jealous joins us. He is president and CEO of the NAACP. Ben Jealous, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. BENJAMIN JEALOUSThank you, Kojo, it's great to be here. You know, I was listening to that intro and there are a couple of things that I want to say right off.

NNAMDIPlease do.

JEALOUSOne is that membership is up. It's been up 5 percent for each of the last two years. It's up more than 60 percent online. So that sort of vicious rumor -- I mean, we're one of those groups people have been questioning our quote/unquote "relevancy."

NNAMDII suspect people would be saying that membership was down before you came aboard. I should say since...

JEALOUSYeah, yeah...

NNAMDI...you came aboard.

JEALOUS...and that was two years ago.

NNAMDICorrect. And membership is up.

JEALOUSSo, you know, that's just one thing is that we've been working hard and we've -- you know, we've targeted the School-to-Prison Pipeline is what we're focused on most. Last week, we launched billboards in four states. You know, one, they're billboards that roll, you know. These are on the backs of trucks. And on one side it says, welcome to the U.S., 5 percent of the world's people, 25 percent of its prisoners. On the other side, it has a specific message about that state, like welcome to Alabama where the incarceration rate has gone up 700 percent since 1968. All of these billboards are pushing for the National Criminal Justice Act to be passed. We're getting to wholesale criminal justice reform.

JEALOUSOn Saturday, we launched a big push with clergy around the country formulated in Jackson, Miss. with 150 passengers and Calvin Butts to really take on the youth age crisis in our community. And of course, this weekend we have a big March On Jobs and so that's our focus. A lot of folks are fixated on some of the other issues that we've spoken up on, but I want to be clear for your listeners that we're squarely focused, as we always have been, on what's hurting black folks most. And at this moment, it is the fact that our schools are failing. We have huge work, wealth and health disparities and way too many of us are being sent off to prison.

NNAMDII want us to talk about the last issue first; way too many of us are being sent off to prison. Because those who may not have known about the NAACP's activities over the course of the last several decades still associate it with ending all of the legal barriers to progress for African-Americans and others, civil rights and voting rights barriers that have long been struck down and are now enshrined in law, the striking down that is. So they'll say, why is the NAACP looking at something called the School-to-Prison Pipeline? People go to prison, they will argue, when they violate the law. Why is the NAACP, apparently, defending people who violate the law?

JEALOUSBecause, you know, who is busted has to do with who the cops look at in the first place. Take a city like New York City, you know. It's that unfairness and that's been at the heart. I mean, when you look at what Thurgood Marshall was doing in all those years while Brown was winding its way through the courts. He was down south dealing with cases similar to the Scottsboro boys, similar to the Scott sisters we're working on right now. Two sisters that have been sentenced to double life sentences for an armed robbery in which no one was injured and only $11 was stolen and even that's at dispute right now.

JEALOUSAnd so there's always been this problem of this inherent unfairness in our justice system. You see it in New York City, if you just look at the enforcement patterns for pot, for instance. Our kids, black kids, are 20 percent less likely than white kids to have a joint on them when the cops stop and search them. But they're five times more likely to get searched. So, you know, there's this presumption that the cops only go after the guilty. But when you search a community five times more often, even though they're four-fifths as likely to be breaking the law, then you have a real problem.

JEALOUSYou see it with crack cocaine, too. We're 15 percent of crack users, which means that like all groups in this society, we roughly use cocaine at the same rate. So whites use about 60 -- about two-thirds of the population, they're 65 percent of the crack users. Now, we're 15 percent black people, but we're 85 percent of people who get busted for using crack. White people, who are 65 percent crack users, are 5 percent of people who get busted for using crack.

JEALOUSAnd so it's because of that inherent unfairness. What that leads to is broken lives and broken families. When you send people away to prison for infractions like drug possession that in wealthier communities people are sent to rehab, then you break up their families at a faster rate. You send them into prison. You impoverish entire school systems because the states end up spending way more money on prisons than they used to and you send more kids off to foster care.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Benjamin Jealous. He is president and CEO of the NAACP, the National Association For The Advancement Of Colored People. We're taking your calls at 800-433-8850. If you have questions for Ben Jealous on the mission of the NAACP, how it has changed over the years and how it is being carried out today, that's 800-433-8850. You can also go to our website at kojoshow.org and join the conversation there. Send us a tweet at kojoshow or an e-mail to kojo@wamu.org.

NNAMDIOne of the things I began by saying, Ben Jealous, is that in some circles, this country especially, since it elected an African American president is being referred to as a post-racial society. What's your take on that?

JEALOUSWe won't be post-racial until we're post-racism. Well, that's just, you know -- the hard part of all this is that racism is a lie built on top of a lie. The first lie is that race exists and it doesn't. You know, people like me, of a white parent and black parent of color are referred to as a mulatto. It comes from the same origin of the word mule. Well, mules, of course, can't reproduce because you take two entirely different breeds, a horse and a donkey, you put them together. You know, that's how race is seen in our society historically.

JEALOUSBut, of course, you know -- well, anyways, I have a daughter, just put it at that so, you know, that's the first lie, that somehow black and white are different. And the reality is skin color is no more genetically significant than eye color or hair color, but we tend to religicize (sic) it in this country. We give it this sort of, you know, kind of greater meaning that just doesn't exist.

JEALOUSThe second is that, you know, therefore we should treat people differently. And, you know -- and so that's what we're dealing with and it's -- in our society for hundreds of years, we have mistreated people because of parentage, because of skin color, because of hair texture and it just has to stop. Unfortunately, burying your head in the sand and saying, you know, I don't see color, just doesn't work. What we have to do is to acknowledge the problem and deal with it affirmatively and move on.

NNAMDIThe emphases -- the NAACP's emphasis on equal rights over the years has had to look at different issues as they have emerged as a part of the nation's central discussion. One of those issues is the issue of gay rights. You have reached out to gay rights groups, Latinos. What do these alliances say about the modern NAACP and how do you convince your base that this is necessary?

JEALOUSWhat they say is that we have our eyes wide open. What we know is that the people who are most likely to be the victims of hate crimes in many communities across this country are black people and people of color, on the one hand, and gay people on the other. You know, that's why the Matthew Shepard, James Bird Hate Crimes Bill was called the Matthew Shepard, James Bird Hates Crimes Bill.

JEALOUSBecause one guy, a white gay guy, was strapped to a fence and beaten to death and the other guy, a black straight guy, was dragged behind a truck until he died. And so the reality is, is that when your community is under siege, you need to be really clear about who has the same interest as you to stop the same problem as you. And when it comes to hate crimes, when it comes to police brutality, that's often the gay community.

JEALOUSThe other -- similarly with, you know, protecting the legacy of the Civil Rights Act and ending employment discrimination. You know, we have tens of thousands, at least, of black people in this country, Latino people, who are discriminated against every year ostensibly because somebody believes that they're gay. And, you know, the reality is that whether that person is black, brown, white, green or purple, if you're discriminating against somebody because of what they are, because they're black, because they're gay, because they're female, because they're, you know, Muslim or they're Jewish or they're Catholic, it's just wrong in this country. And we will always be very clear on that. You know, the third part...

NNAMDIBefore you get any further, Ben, how difficult a sell is that in the African American community? When you came into this position, you were 35 years old. And according to most studies, African-Americans are more likely to think that homosexuality is morally wrong than are whites. But because you came into this job at 35 years old, I ask, is it a generational divide in a way? Is it easy to -- is it easier to sell your alliance with gays against discrimination than it is among older African Americans?

JEALOUSAh, not at all. You know, what's hard and what's controversial is the issue of marriage equality. And frankly...

NNAMDIOh, okay.

JEALOUS...you know, I'm not selling that issue. That's being debated on a state level right now and most of the states that I've debated have come down on the side of marriage equality, but not all. However, the reality is is that we often -- you know, folks like you and I are blessed with these big cities often think about all these different rainbow of civil rights groups because we see them in our cities, you know...

NNAMDIOh, no. But I've been to the NAACP conventions and I happen to know where most of the chapters come from. They don't come from these big cities.

JEALOUSThat's right. They come from rural -- in those rural areas, we aren't simply the black civil rights group or the people of color, we're the civil rights group. If you have a civil rights infraction, because you're an older white person or because you're a young gay person or whatever, you look for some place to turn, like Coffee County, Ga. for instance. We're often it. And so, for instance, in Coffee County -- you know, I was down there recently and they were dealing with a case.

JEALOUSYou had two sets of black kids, one who were attending a local college, one who had come in from an outside community. The ones who were attending a local college had been singled out because people believed they were gay and they were beaten up. It was taken on videotape and the video was put up on YouTube. And the title was something like, Southwest Georgia State Gays Bashed and it showed these Southwest Georgia State students being beaten up.

JEALOUSThe university then expelled them from housing. And the belief was there was this -- they were kicked out of housing, you know. It was reportedly because they had embarrassed the school because they got beaten up and it was caught on videotape. Well, it was the NAACP in the local community, without missing a beat, who went right in there to help the students, advocate with the university about why this is wrong. And that's the case, you know, in small communities across the country. You know, people have gotten used to the fact that we've just got to band together. I mean, the march that we're planning this weekend, the one nationwide, it's sort of based on that principle.

NNAMDII was about to mention that the One Nation March this weekend. Tell us a little bit about that. It's going to bring some of these groups together that...

JEALOUSYeah, sure. I mean, it's based on the same principle, which is that, look, you know, people who are catching it right now need to come together. You know, people in this economy who are hurting because of joblessness, who are hurting -- whether their community has been in recession for two years or for twenty years have something in common, which is that we're all fighting for more jobs right now.

JEALOUSAnd so we said -- you know, after all this divisiveness on the radio and the TV, said, you know, enough is enough. Let's get everybody together, working class white folks, professional black folks, the environmentalists and the mine workers, the teachers and the students, the Jewish community and the Muslim and the Christian community. Let's get everybody together. And say, look, when times are tough, we know that we need to focus on putting this country back to work so we can pull this country back together.

NNAMDIBen Jealous, there are people on the line who want to speak with you. I got to take a short break. When we come back, if you have already called, stay on the line. If you haven't yet, it's 800-433-8850 or you can go to our website kojoshow.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDILater in the broadcast, we'll be talking with Pulitzer prize winning author Alice Walker on overcoming grief with poetry and with furious dancing. Right now, we're talking with Benjamin Jealous. He's president and CEO of the NAACP. Before we go to the telephones, Ben Jealous, this rambunctious debate that's currently taking place in our country over public education, which is one of the priorities of the NAACP, a discussion that seems to be pitting teachers' unions against reformers, but the bottom line is, how do we provide the best education for our public school children? Where does the organization come down in this debate? Ben Jealous, can...yeah.

JEALOUSThe -- you know, we focus on four things. We focus on four things. You know, one is extending the school day, two is insuring that teacher quality is a main focus of what school systems do, two (sic) is insuring that we focus resources on the kids who need it most. If you do those three things, if you extend the school day, if you focus on teacher quality, if you give resources disproportionately to the kids who start the furthest behind and if you invest in universal pre-k, then what you see is that school systems take off. I mean, those four things are what -- the cities that lead their states, the states that lead the country and the countries that lead the world do.

NNAMDIHere is William in Fairfax, Va. William, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

WILLIAMYes. I'm basically -- I'm a white male and my question is, what can I do to help your cause? Because everything that you're saying here really resonates with me. And I mean, I see -- there are people I know that say, you know, racism no longer exists and stuff like that. And it clearly does. And I'm trying to raise children in this modern age and I basically want to know, you know, what can I do? What can I do as a father and as a community member to help these causes that you're talking about? Particularly, the problems with the prison system.

NNAMDIBen Jealous?

JEALOUSYeah, one thing is that -- please join us this weekend at the One Nation rally in Washington, D.C. at the Lincoln at noon. It's just important, you know, for kids -- I think, especially kids really benefit the most from being part of those moments. And they're really kind of baptismal moments when kids can see themselves as being part of a much bigger movement for human rights and for justice. And two, is to get active in your local NAACP.

JEALOUSI mean, one of the things that people think is that somehow it's a black organization. And while we're a black lead organization, we're proud about our legacy. From our founding, we've been a multi-racial organization depending where you are in the country. Sometimes black people are in the minority. And it's especially common up in New England, for instance. You know, and the third is to, you know, if it's not the NAACP, to get involved in one of the other many groups out there who are taking a stand on these issues and who we work with all the time.

JEALOUSI mean, you know, the reality is that in our society right now, I think we generally suffer because a lot of civic organizations, people are just -- you know, that our generation is the generation-x and the boomer generation are just less inclined to invest in -- than our parents were.

NNAMDIAnd I should mention to our caller, William, that Ben Jealous has been --reportedly been to visit, on more than one occasion, a Maine prison where a white male heads the NAACP chapter, correct?

JEALOUSCorrect. And three-quarters of the members are white, too. And you sit down with them and you say, you know, why are you active in the NAACP? And they say, because on our issues, on issues of, you know, basic justice, this organization is right on. And when we looked around for an umbrella to stand under, this was the strongest umbrella.

NNAMDIHere is Bob in Washington, D.C. Bob, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

BOBYeah, I just have been listening to the program and I'm actually shocked. I feel that the guest is taking too broad of a look or a -- to try to -- I don’t know. I think the organization is now -- not the organization I understood it to be now. I don't see myself wanting to participate...

JEALOUSWhy not?

BOB...in an organization that is -- well, because it's like that -- there's so many issues in the African-American community. In order to address those issues, it has to be focused, a focused effort. I mean, here's an opportunity to inform his members who are -- happen to be African-American. And as he keeps explaining, there are so many different, you know, populations that they are actually trying to serve and reach out to, but at the end of the day, African-Americans are, you know, just -- they have a disappropriate (sic) number of people who are suffering, you know, in areas of...

NNAMDIYour point, Bob, is that the NAACP or the NAACP should continue to focus on African-Americans and not necessarily be bothered about gay rights or Hispanics?

BOBWell, I think the organization, under this man's leadership, is now going into oblivion. I don't see the focus. I see that there's so many issues that need to be addressed...

NNAMDINo, let me -- allow me to make sure that I get your question correctly. You seem to be saying that the organization is not focusing primarily on the African-American community. Is that your criticism?

BOBYes, exactly.

NNAMDIAllow me to have Ben Jealous respond. Ben Jealous.

JEALOUSYeah, we live in -- we live in a democracy. And right now, our biggest opportunities for making changes are in passing laws. You know, if we were just going into court, like we were 50 years ago, then we could focus on a very small group. You know, I cut my teeth as an organizer on high impact civil rights cases. And for that, you just got to organize the plaintiffs really. But when you're trying to change laws so that school systems, you know, stop being bankrupted because we're spending so much money on prison and specifically public higher education, for instance.

JEALOUSYou know, when you're trying to change laws so that we have a fair basis for insuring that all public schools get the dollars that they need to properly educate their kids, when you're trying to change laws to make sure that workers really have the right to be treated fairly at work, then you've got to have a broad base. That's exactly what we did when we passed the civil rights act, it's what we did when we passed the voting rights act and it's what we're doing now.

JEALOUSYou know, we have -- we, as black people in this society, have to be willing to lead and to put together broad coalitions as a people and, you know, if we're going to get our agenda through. At the same time, when you have four young black kids killed on a school yard in Newark and the media jumps out there and says, oh, this is about black Latino tension. And then, you find out that what those kids had in common is that they were gay and they were lesbian and that they were targeted because they, you know, for that reason, then we have to speak up on that, too.

JEALOUSYou know, if you kill -- you know, if you kill our kids because you're angry that they're black, of course, the NAACP is going to be there. But if you kill our kids because you're angry they're gay, well, we have to be there, too.

NNAMDIThank you for your call, Bob. Here is Karen in Arlington, Va. Karen, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KARENYes.

NNAMDIKaren, are you there?

KARENHi, I'm glad you took my call, sir. I really wanted to congratulate the gentleman whose been talking it, the no discrimination, and I completely agree with it. Because I wish there were more people who would think like that and they should -- you know, I'm originally from India and we are friends with whites, blacks, Americans, Jews, Pakistanis, everybody. And it's just wonderful every time we speak with them. And everybody feels exactly the same.

KARENAnd I really wanted to say it, that if there should be any discrimination, it should be only against people who are criminals and terrorists and, you know, all those people. But human beings, as such, should all be together and it should be -- according to me, it should be taught from elementary school how to live, you know, together with one another, happily and without any discrimination. Rich, poor, it doesn't matter where you come from. So I -- that's just what I wanted to say.

NNAMDIBen Jealous, Karen sounds like the candidate for the One Nation march next -- this weekend.

JEALOUSYes, she does. And I really hope that she's there. And that's -- you know, we have got to be relentless in this country about really ending its, you know, its kind of history of xenophobia. And the way in which xenophobia is, you know, each sort of generation or so, there's some group that really tries to bring it back in full force. And, you know, that's what we're doing right now.

JEALOUSAnd we -- you know, Kojo, last Easter, I was sitting down having dinner. And my 93-year-old grandmother wasn't quite sure whether all the hatred we had heard on the radio during the healthcare debate was more like the period -- you know, in all the instability in Congress, that her grandparents had described at the end of reconstruction or what she had seen in the 1950s and '60s. And then, my sister's family where they celebrate Passover, there were, you know, similar conversations. People think it's pure -- it's just too much like the, you know, the period in the 1930s with all the scapegoating.

JEALOUSAnd the reality is that if there's anything that we should regret about those periods in our history is that not enough of us stood up fast enough, spoke up loud enough and said, you know, how dare you try to scapegoat this group or how dare you try to, you know, divorce that group from the great dream of this country? And that, you know, that's what we're seeking to do with the One Nation march.

JEALOUSWe are all in this together. We don't want to take our country back. We want to take our country back to being number one. And in order to do that, we need to focus on what's important. We need to focus on job creation. We need to make -- we need to focus on making sure that our kids go to great schools. And we need to defend our basic civil rights. Right now, they are attacking everything from the 14th Amendment to the voting rights act. And it's just got to stop.

NNAMDIBenjamin Jealous is President and CEO of the National Association For The Advancement Of Colored People. Ben Jealous, thank you very much for joining us.

JEALOUSThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break. When we come back, Pulitzer Prize winning author Alice Walker, her new book of poetry is called "Hard Times Require Furious Dancing." I'm Kojo Nnamdi.