MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Americans have long moved south for their golden years in search of sunshine to places like Florida and Arizona. Some adventurous retirees go farther south to Mexico, Panama, Ecuador. Those who choose to cross the border to retire have always been the minority, people willing to navigate the arcane laws and inconveniences of living abroad. But the upside of a retirement abroad can easily offset those concerns, lower cost of living, good inexpensive healthcare and in some cases, financial incentives from welcoming governments.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIMost people approach retirement in individual terms, but it has global implications too. One scholar sees retiring abroad as a way to create jobs in the developing world while relieving pressure on medical and elder care systems at home. Joining me to explore international retirement is Jack Goldstone. He's professor of public policy at George Mason University and author of, "The New Population Bomb: The Four Megatrends That Will Change the World." That was in the magazine, Foreign Affairs, January/February 2010 issue. One of the trends that Jack discovers in that article is retiring abroad. Jack, thank you for joining us.

MR. JACK GOLDSTONEGlad to be here, Kojo.

NNAMDIAlso with us is Laura Cohn, associate editor of, Kiplinger's Personal Finance. Laura Cohn, thank you for joining us.

MS. LAURA COHNThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDIAnd joining us by phone from Merida, Mexico, is Dan Prescher, special projects editor with International Living magazine. Dan Prescher, thank you for joining us.

MR. DAN PRESCHERThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIDan, your magazine, International Living, ranks the most popular retirement destinations. What countries are on that list?

PRESCHERWell, it starts with the country I'm in right now. Last year, Mexico was number one on the list. This year, it's number two. The top five for 2009 are, right now, Ecuador, Mexico, Panama, Uruguay and Italy.

NNAMDISo Ecuador is now number one?

PRESCHERThat's correct, yeah. It took number one late in 2009.

NNAMDITell us about your own decision to relocate from Omaha, Neb. to Merida, Mexico.

PRESCHERWe -- I was born and raised in Omaha, Neb., my wife spent most of her years there and we were just kind of sitting there one January night listening to the heater go and we said, "Never another winter in Omaha." And we finally decided to do something about it. We got jobs with International Living and that took us offshore the end of 2001. And we've lived offshore ever since.

NNAMDIHave you ever thought about retiring abroad? Call us, 800-433-8850. What would influence your decision? 800-433-8850 or join us at our website kojoshow.org. In broad terms, what are people looking for when they decide to cross the border and retire outside the U.S., Laura Cohn?

COHNThe main driver, I would think, is a lower cost of living. I mean, of course, people do worry about healthcare, do I still need to pay my taxes? But given that the economy has taken a turn for the worse, people are looking to stretch their dollars. And these days, there are actually a lot of places you can go. We mentioned Ecuador already. We'll talk about some of the other places perhaps a bit later. Mexico and Panama as well, where the cost of living is lower. There are doctors who are trained in the U.S. So in a lot of cases, you can't actually stretch your dollar.

NNAMDIYou mean, sun, beach are not major factors anymore?

COHNOkay, the weather, too. The weather, too...

NNAMDIThank you, very much.

COHN...is a big factor as well, but I'm thinking in practical terms, yes.

NNAMDIJack Goldstone, choosing a retirement destination is a personal decision, but it can have international implications. And the recent foreign affairs article you mentioned, you mentioned retiring abroad in the context of global population trends. How do those trends make international retirement a win/win situation for both the U.S. and for the destination company?

GOLDSTONEWell, as you know, population of our country is aging. Baby boomers, and that includes folks like me, are looking at retirement coming up right around the corner and there are a lot of us. In fact, it's quite remarkable. There are going to be another 40 million people over age 65 in this country within the next 30 years. That would double the amount we have today. So you have to think where are all of those people going to go to get the lifestyle they want.

GOLDSTONEAnd it's not just at a price that we as individuals can afford because let's face it, we're counting on the government to cover a lot of our medical care as we enter retirement. And, I think, when you look at the numbers, how many people in this country will be over 65? What is the rising cost of providing medical care for those people? You have to say it's going to be a win/win situation if those people can enjoy a more desirable, less expensive retirement and get good medical care while it costs them and Uncle Sam maybe a quarter of the cost that it would if they stayed here.

NNAMDIFascinating concept. I'd like to ask our listeners. What do you think of the developing world as a kind of retirement destination for people in the developed world? 800-433-8850. Because, Jack Goldstone, you've said a daring approach to rebalancing the world's population would be to encourage this reverse flow of older immigrants from developed countries to developing countries. How would that relieve the pressure on the American entitlement system?

GOLDSTONEWell, look, conservatives are worried about too many foreigners coming into America. But they come here to get jobs. And caring for the elderly and health services are two of the most labor-intensive types of work there are. If we have to care for an extra 30, 40 million elderly people in this country, whether in nursing homes or simply providing them help with normal garden and other tasks that they can't do themselves, there's going to be a huge, huge demand for labor and it won't be available unless we have young people 'cause all the young people are abroad now. We'll have to have young people come from abroad here. Wouldn't it make more since for more of our elderly people to settle abroad where the labor is plentiful and less expensive? It's going to provide more opportunities and investment in those countries. And they win and we win.

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, Jack Goldstone is a professor of public policy at George Mason University and author of the book, "The New Population Bomb -- author of the new article, "The New Population Bomb: The Four Megatrends That Will Change the World." One of those trends is retiring abroad. He joins us in studio with Laura Cohn, associate editor of Kiplinger's Personal Finance. Joining us by telephone from Merida, Mexico, is Dan Prescher, special projects editor with International Living. Dan, a lot of people put access to high quality, affordable healthcare near the top of their priority list in choosing a retirement destination. How good are the healthcare systems in the popular retirement countries and how much does good medical care there cost?

PRESCHERWe found it to be very good. We were surprised. We actually didn't know what to expect when we first moved abroad in 2001. But since then, I've become kind of avid consumer of medical care. In Panama, I had my cataracts taken out and artificial lenses inserted in. In Ecuador, I had a torn rotator cuff repaired. And I can say, from personal experience, that the work was high quality and I paid probably a quarter of what I would've paid in the United States for the same procedures. I found it to be excellent care south of the border.

NNAMDILaura Cohn, you've written about this also.

COHNYeah, I actually interviewed a couple who had a similar experience. There was a gentleman who'd retired to Mexico from Alaska, which is a long ways away. But he needed knee replacements and it cost 80 percent less, he estimated, to get it done in Mexico than what it would've cost in the U.S. He said in Mexico, it cost $24,000 and he estimated that in the U.S. it would've been about 120. So that's a significant...

NNAMDIWe discovered that...

COHN...difference.

NNAMDI...the son of Carlos Slim, the world's richest man is investing in a chain of healthcare centers right along the U.S., Mexico border because he thinks there will be a lot of people crossing the border to get healthcare. Dan Prescher?

PRESCHERThat's true. And just last week, I attended a meeting here between Yucatan state officials and entrepreneurs in the Merida area about what they could do to work together to make Merida a magnet center for continuing and assisted healthcare for Americans who are looking for options in the near future. Several cities in Mexico are taking it upon themselves to make themselves attractive to U.S. retirees who will, sooner or later, need assisted and nursing home care.

NNAMDILaura, do you lose your Medicare if you retire abroad?

COHNYou don't lose it, but you can't get it. In other words, if you're going to leave here -- if you're going to leave the U.S., you can't get Medicare. You can only get it when you're actually in the United States. So in that situation, you need to either see -- you need to investigate a little bit. See if the plan you have will cover you while you're abroad or you may need to get private insurance. But as Dan said, it's significantly less than it would be here. And the other thing that I found from my reporting, talking to some ex-pats in Mexico, for example, is that they told me that their doctor, actually at the end of the visit, gave them his cell phone number and called him that night to see how he was feeling. And he's -- and they were really impressed with the care that they received. So to me, that sold me on the concept.

NNAMDIThe doctor gave them his cell phone number?

COHNYes, and that was actually the kicker in my story (laugh) .

NNAMDIThat's a kicker anywhere. Here is Patricia in McLean, Va. Patricia, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PATRICIAHi, thank you. I was just wondering if your panel had any information on the country of Belize as a retirement destination. It's someplace that I've thought about now for about 15 years.

NNAMDIWe also heard from Tom in Bethesda, Md. Do your guests know anything about Belize, Dan Prescher?

PRESCHERWe just returned from a scouting trip there in fact. Susan and I have been there several times. It's a wonderful destination. And Belize has the advantage of being English-speaking. It was part of the United Kingdom for many years. So the national language is English and the Belize dollar is pegged to the U.S. dollar two to one so there are no currency exchange issues. There are some beautiful places in Belize. And depending on where you go, you can live probably on half as much as you can in the United States.

NNAMDIAnd, Jack, are there business opportunities in healthcare facilities that target ex-pats?

GOLDSTONEThere certainly are and you see this in both directions. On the one hand, there are medical tourism groups that encourage and sell packages to people who want an operation. They'll arrange for operation and also recuperation and a vacation and even companion travel as part of the deal. The businesses in the United States are actually looking at this, too. Just a couple of years ago, Hannaford Brothers, a supermarket chain based in Maine, began paying the entire medical bill for employees to travel to Singapore if they would have their hip and knee replacements done there, including paying for a companion ticket. And in Mexico, people are building entire complexes, not just retirement condos, which you see, but also turnkey nursing homes where you can sign a contract for any level of personal care you need, from minor support to full cooking of all meals, transportation, physical therapy. All is part of one attractive package.

NNAMDIOnto Ruth in Burke, Va. Ruth, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

RUTHOh, thanks for taking my call. Yes. My husband and I are about six years out from retirement and we are really seriously thinking about moving out of the country and starting to look abroad. A few years ago, I think, I heard on the radio that Canada -- you could buy citizenship from Canada at that time for six or 7,000 a person and that started me thinking. But with what's going on with the partisanship in politics and not being able to get things done that I think that are important and important on the environment, healthcare and especially financial reform of the banks.

RUTHWe lost a lot of money with our 401K. And our 401K is our pension. So my feeling is, if they're not going to seriously take a look at making the bank so that they're not too big to fail, but breaking them up, instead of just setting up a system where they pay for themselves or they, you know, they let them go out of business. That's not going to help because what they're saying is, you know, well let them fail. But what about my money? So...

NNAMDIIndeed.

RUTH...I just feel we don't have the security.

NNAMDII'm glad you brought that up, Ruth. Laura Cohn, how have the recession and the fact that so many people like Ruth and her husband lost money in their retirement accounts impacted the number of people retiring abroad?

COHNThat's a really good question. It's hard to know precisely how many people are living overseas. But we do know that the number of social security checks that are sent overseas has been rising. It was about half a million at last count. And again, like I said, that's been rising. And she mentioned one of the reasons people are thinking about going south is because it's less expensive and your dollar can go further and you can buy a property for much less money than you can here in the U.S.

NNAMDIDan, in a recent survey in your magazine, a huge majority of respondents said that they're more likely to move out of the United States than there were last year. One, what were the reasons they were generally giving and two, were you surprised by this?

PRESCHERWe weren't surprised because we see a lot of this at our events. The attendance at the events that we have, for example, in Kato and in Mexico and in Panama has been steadily rising the last couple of years. And this year, we've actually had to stop registration for some of them. They've sold out before we've even advertised them. So we see a lot of these people showing up. And honestly, they kind of look shell-shocked. They look like they have the mental version of whiplash. After eight years of the Bush Administration, the first months of the Obama Administration, they really don't know what to expect out of the future, where their 401ks will go, where their retirement funds will end up next. So we see a lot of people who are just looking for some kind of alternative to make their -- what cash they have left...

NNAMDIYou make them sound as much like refugees as they are retires.

PRESCHERSome of them actually feel like refugees. I have to tell you, they really do look shell-shocked when they show up. And they're looking for anything they can possibly do to get by and what they see is a future that is completely unpredictable.

NNAMDIWe're going to take a short break and see what you predict for your own future in terms of your retirement. You can call us at 800-433-8850. We're discussing what seems to be the expanding phenomenon of Americans retiring abroad. You can also join the conversation at our website, kojoshow.org or shoot us an email to kojo@wamu.org. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're discussing retiring abroad with Jack Goldstone, professor of public policy at George Mason University and author of "The New Population Bomb: The Four Megatrends That Will Change the World," that appeared in Foreign Affairs January/February 2010 issue. One of the trends that Jack Goldstone discussed is retiring abroad. Also, joining us in the studio is Laura Cohn, associate editor with Kiplinger's Personal Finance. Joining us by phone from Marita, Mexico is Dan Prescher, special projects editor with International Living magazine. We mentioned earlier, Jack, if -- you lose Medicaid if you retire abroad. You want to discuss...

GOLDSTONEMedicare, you mean.

NNAMDIMedicare, if you retire abroad. Do you want to say something else?

GOLDSTONEIt's certainly a big issue now. However, I think if we look at the way global trends are pushing the U.S. government, that is going to change. We've already had a couple of insurance companies, Blue Shield of California and Blue Cross/Blue Shield of South Carolina, team up and certify hospitals in Mexico and Costa Rica where people who have their insurance can go and have it covered. And I think where the private market went, the government will follow. And one of the issues facing us now is, is the U.S. government going to continue reducing payments to physicians for Medicare?

GOLDSTONEThey're facing a revolt. A number of physicians simply won't take any more patients and yet we have 30 or 40 million more Medicare patients that will come into the system in the next few years. Something's got to give and the logical course is for the U.S. government to certify hospitals south of the border in other developing countries and give patients a choice and say, look, Medicare will cover 100 percent of your medical expenses up to this dollar amount and you can either take that in a certified hospital abroad where everything will be covered or you cover it in the United States where you're going to have a hard time finding a doctor and you have to pay more out of pocket. I think we're going to see a rapid expansion of Medicare options for outside of the U.S. care.

NNAMDILaura, what are the tax requirements for people who live abroad? Uncle Sam expects us to pay our taxes no matter where we live, right?

COHNWell, that's exactly right. And I think some people who are thinking about retiring overseas may not actually realize that. As a U.S. citizen, you have to pay taxes whether you leave the country or not. That's not true for all countries, but it is true for the U.S. So if you are going to do it, we recommend hiring a -- maybe a special accountant consulting with a special advisor. Just so you know, things are going to get a little more complicated in the short term as you adjust to your new life overseas.

NNAMDISo that plan that you had to catch a flight to Mexico before midnight tonight, April 15, forget it. You're still going to have to...

COHNYeah, I'm sorry to say, you're going to have to forget it.

NNAMDIOn to the telephone. Here is Ellis, in Hedgefield, W. Va. Ellis, in Hedgefield, W. Va. Go ahead please.

ELLISThank you for taking my call, Kojo. I'm a retired foreign service officer who's acted as a counsel officer in both Latin America and the Middle East, as well as Europe. And one thing I strongly suggest to people is that they thoroughly investigate their legal rights in the countries that they select, as well as look at the political history and cultural problems in those countries. A good example is in 2006, I assisted in the evacuation of approximately 15,000 American citizens from Lebanon. And a large group of these people were retirees of Lebanese descent who went back to Lebanon and then suddenly found themselves uprooted. Also, too, sometimes people stay in Mexico or other places, buy places thinking that they've purchased the land, which they can't under local law. And there are court cases like in Baja, where the government determined that a development had been illegally done on an Indian tribe land and that threw a lot of the people into a legal limbo.

NNAMDIDan Prescher, how do you advise people who attend your events about matters like this? The political culture of a country, I know a lot of people are saying, well, what I've been reading about Mexico is drug cartels operating there. Are they operating also where you are in Marita?

PRESCHERNo, they're not, Kojo. And we're thankful that they're not. In fact, I just read a report the other day, the latest crime statistics show that Mexico is --actually has the third lowest murder rate in Latin America and most places in Mexico are safer than Washington D.C., statistically as far as homicides go. There's a terrible, terrible drug war going on along the border and in places where drugs are imported and processed in Mexico. The vast majority of the country is very safe, but that's not what makes the news. So your caller is absolutely right. It depends on your individual tolerance for risk, for uncertainty and you certainly have to deal with some of that if you move abroad.

NNAMDIThank you very much for you call, Ellis. We move onto Anna in Germantown, Md. Anna, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

ANNAThank you for taking my call. I just wanted to make a comment and just say that I think another reason why you have a lot of, you know, people moving abroad or moving to developing countries is because I think the media sometimes paints a picture that is not exactly what's on the ground. I originally come from Kenya. And if you compare just, you know, the general lifestyle of people who, you know, get a decent wage, you know, it's -- they live a better life, you know, than most people, I would say, you know, that I've interacted with in the U.S. Another thing I think is culture -- in places, you know, depending on what country it is.

ANNABut as Africans, you know, we tend to be more communal and you also don't have nursing homes, per se. People tend to look after their parents as they age. So I think some of things influence whether, you know, a person wants to move, you know, out of the U.S. and live in that kind of society. I think another thing, too, that I've seen, is we have a lot of diplomats and people who head, you know, big organizations who come to the country and end up retiring there. And I think it's just -- there's sometimes a general misconception that quality of life is not good. But when you show people pictures of where people live, sometimes it's unbelievable. You know, people ask, are you sure? You know, that kind of thing.

NNAMDII know people can have beautiful houses in those places. Jack Goldstone, one of the issues that Anna raises is how easy it is for people to adjust to different cultural norms.

GOLDSTONEWell, certainly it is difficult if you are unfamiliar with the culture. But what we're finding is people who chose to retire abroad have often vacationed there and have gotten to know the local setting, the local culture. I mean, I think you always have to be cautious. In this country, we had people who were sold swampland in Florida because they didn't visit and check out the people they were dealing with. I would never encourage somebody to plan their retirement abroad simply on the basis of a brochure. But we live in a world where, fortunately, we get to be familiar with sushi from our corner 7-11 and cultural differences are not as great as they once were.

COHNIf I could add just one other thing.

NNAMDIPlease do, Laura.

COHNThe other thing that I would mention is, say you're thinking about retiring in Panama, for example. Go visit several times. Go during different seasons and talk to other ex-pats. Report it out, as we would say in journalism, because ex-pats were a fantastic resource for you. Other ex-pats can maybe tell you who the good lawyer, who the person is who can help you with your taxes, et cetera. So actually, if you're actually physically down there and you can get a sense of the culture, you may be able to avoid culture shock.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Anna. We've got an e-mail -- or somebody joined us on the website, listening in France. It says, "my wife and I are retired. Fred's living in France. I like to describe it as one big amusement park for adults; culture, food, wine, history, et cetera. And the medical care here is good, too, at a fraction of the cost in the U.S. We're covered by Federal Blue Cross/Blue Shield and it works out quite well. Not cheap here, certainly compared to Central America, but high quality services and easy accessibility to lots of other interesting countries. The only problems are dealing with foreign bureaucracies that don't know what the Office of Personnel Management is. But with some help from the U.S. Embassy, maybe we can educate them. Care to comment on that, Dan Prescher?

PRESCHERWell, oddly enough, France topped our quality of life index for this year. We do a study where we basically assess countries. If money were no object, where could you go and get the absolute best quality of all around life? France was at the top for just the reasons that your e-mailer suggested. The healthcare is great. The culture is superb. It's kind of a wonderland. And Americans have this fantasy about France, that I can say from personal experience, when you go there is actually fulfilled. France is a wonderful place so I understand completely what he's talking about.

NNAMDIExcept for that pesky condition, if money is no object.

NNAMDIHere is Terry in Silver Springs, Md. Terry, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

TERRYIs it Terry from Silver Springs?

NNAMDIYes, indeed.

TERRYOkay. Thank you, Kojo. I actually -- this question is probably for Jack. I'm wondering about the corporate perspective. How do you see these demographics, you know, shift, this whole dynamic affecting the design of benefits packages? Like, I know in Medicare, like you -- it was said earlier, you know, you can't use it overseas. But I guess you can use your benefits packages overseas. And secondly, what about corporations, you know, with their pension systems? I mean, I guess what they're drawing on, a lot of the elderly are going to be using up the pension plans. Will they be seeking to get more contributors, like a younger workforce, maybe going into Latin America, Africa? And, you know, since, you know, multinationals than having contributors. How do you see that dynamic...

GOLDSTONEWell, Terry...

NNAMDIHere's Jack Goldstone.

GOLDSTONE...yeah, Terry, I think you're absolutely right. The growing markets over the world are going to be in developing countries. Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, these are the countries where most of today's young people are growing up. That's today's and tomorrow's consumers. So you're definitely going to see a larger corporate presence, especially for consumer-oriented companies. And along with that, that means sending managers abroad. We already see colonies of ex-pat managers, whether it's Japanese in Brazil or Italians in China.

GOLDSTONESo, again, if you're thinking of retiring abroad, you're going to find a community of ex-pats in most places. You're not going to be alone out there and with that is going to come greater service availability and more people you can rely on to help you. Now, the good thing, again, for the developing countries is their relationships with American companies are going to deepen. You're going to have more people in the bureaucracies in other countries who are familiar with Americans, with American companies and how they operate and with their needs. And I strongly expect, for the reasons that you point out, that companies will want to have more of their retirees and more of their current officers involved, obtaining services and living abroad.

NNAMDIThank you very much for your call, Terry. Laura Cohn, can you collect your social security if you live abroad?

COHNYes, unless you live in Cuba or North Korea. Unless you live in Cuba or North Korea, they will send you your check.

NNAMDII guess since those were the top of my list, I can't go there. Except for those two countries, you can get it?

COHNYes. And what -- nowadays with online banking, what's so convenient, some of the ex-pats I spoke to who've been living overseas -- and I'm sure maybe Dan has had a similar experience. What people do is they get the social security check deposited into an online bank account that they can access from overseas. I spoke to a gentleman this morning, for example, who's retired in Panama, who has a bank -- banks with HSBC here in the U.S. and they have a branch in Panama. So he can move money around without paying fees and get his money.

NNAMDIIt's my understanding that some countries offer financial incentives to attract foreign transplants. What do those involve?

COHNYes. And the best, as far as I can tell and I'm wondering what Dan thinks, is Panama. They have a -- it's called the Pensionado (sp?) Program in which you get all sorts of discounts on airline tickets, restaurants, just about anything you could think that you would want spend money on as long you get a visa. And what they require to get a visa, it's not that hard, is you have to have a certain pension payment of -- I think it's $500 per person or $600 per couple. And then, you can get the visa and then you can qualify for this program and you don't even actually have to be that old.

NNAMDIDan Prescher?

PRESCHERThat's correct. Yeah, that's correct. And many countries have a -- what they call a Pensionado Program like Panama's. But Panama went the extra mile and actually packaged theirs as an incentive for foreign retirees. I think that just comes with Panama's expertise at dealing with Americans. U.S. citizens have been in Panama for about 100 years, thanks to the Panama Canal. So it's a very U.S. friendly place to go. And they just had the foresight to package their retiree or retirado program. But the benefits in Mexico, in Ecuador, in many countries throughout Latin America are much the same.

NNAMDIWe got this post on our Facebook page from Kelly. "There's currently a fairly large community of ex-pat retirees in Costa Rica. Stable government, good healthcare, low cost of living and just one direct flight away from the United States." And here is Michael in Gettysburg, Pa. Michael, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MICHAELHi, how are you?

NNAMDII'm well.

MICHAELYeah, I'm one of those people in Costa Rica. I'm back here in the States for a little while right now, but I'm living in Costa Rica. And I think the -- I have good medical care there. I can either elect to go into the socialized medicine or I can have private medication, private medical care. And I can live on my social security and have extra money at the end of the month. And it's just a -- I can't do that here. Every time I go to the doctor's office here, I spend more than my whole social security check. It's just much more advantageous for me to be in a country like that than it is to be in the United States.

NNAMDIIn addition to -- which it's my understanding, Dan Prescher, that in Costa Rica, real estate profits are exempt from capital gains taxes and the country actually offers tax incentives to start your own business there.

PRESCHERThat's correct. Costa Rica actually kind of started the brand for off-shore retiree paradises. It's been a favorite place for ex-pats for a long, long time. And if memory serves, a couple of weeks ago, Rush Limbaugh actually threatened to move there if the health care bill got passed, and I'm wondering if he's left already.

NNAMDINot according to what I'm hearing on the radio actually, Michael. But we got this email from Bart. "Was in the Philippines last year and saw an ad directed at Americans. Could you speak to this location?" Dan Prescher or Jack Goldstone?

PRESCHERWe actually don't have much to do with the Philippines. I know that it's a very attractive place for a lot of, for example, ex-military personnel who've done the southeast Asia tour and have fallen in love with the place and settled in there. A lot of the folks that we have as readers and subscribers want to stay a little closer to the U.S. Like a caller said, it's a short flight from Costa Rica back to the United States. I can get to Houston from Merida in 90 minutes. And for especially retirees with family, grandchildren, friends back in the United States, that's a very attractive proposition.

NNAMDIJack Goldstone?

GOLDSTONEWell, the Philippines is far away, but it does have the advantages of Americans having been there for a very long time and it's a beautiful tropical area with beaches and fabulous shopping. I think, though, if we look wherever you go in the world, the world is increasingly friendly for people who are dealing with different cultures because they can take so much with them. You can find an ATM that will take your bank card in remote villages in Mexico or even in Malaysia. I did it. I climbed a hillside in a dusty little village and was astonished to see a modern ATM machine poking out between the stores.

GOLDSTONEInternational telephone rates have dropped to almost nothing. If you buy a calling card, it's pennies a minute. It used to be dollars. And you can hook up to the Internet almost anywhere in the world and follow your favorite baseball teams or get TV shows. It's really remarkable how much you can take with you.

NNAMDIWe've got to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation on retiring abroad and taking your calls at 800-433-8850. Of course, if the lines are busy, you can go to our website, kojoshow.org, join the conversation there. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIRetiring abroad, an expanding phenomenon is what we're discussing with Laura Cohn, associated editor of Kiplinger's Personal Finance magazine. She joins us in studio along with Jack Goldstone. He's a professor of public policy at George Mason University and author of "The New Population Bomb: The Four Megatrends That Will Change the World." That was published in Foreign Affairs, the January/February 2010 issue. One of the trends Jack discussed is retiring abroad. And joining us by phone from Merida, Mexico, is Dan Prescher, special projects editor with International Living.

NNAMDIWe got, earlier, a comment from two individuals calling themselves feds listening in France and a comment that they made, that I assume to be tongue-in-cheek, they said the only problems are dealing with foreign bureaucracies that don't know what the office of personal management is. But with some help from the U.S. Embassy, maybe we can educate them. What I took to be tongue-in-cheek, Elizabeth in Atlanta, Ga., took, it appears, literally.

NNAMDIElizabeth writes, "I've been waiting for someone to address the issue of arrogance and prejudice that some of these retirees take with them to their new country. I believe your e-mailer from France highlighted the problem. They believe they know better than the people there, which immediately sends the signal that they're not there to enjoy the country, but to try to change it, which is a blueprint for resentment." Is that a phenomenon that you have encountered, Dan Prescher, resentment against quote/unquote "the ugly American?"

PRESCHERI'm kind of sorry to report that it is, Kojo. But it -- it's growing less and less. Ten years ago when we moved outside the U.S., we went to Quito, Ecuador, and then to Ajijic, Mexico. And there was definitely an ugly American syndrome. You'd hear people say things like, why can't these people build roads correctly or why can't they learn how to cue up in lines? Now, I don't see that so much because I think people are a little more worldly, a little more understanding that conditions on the ground depend completely on that country's culture, business climate, history. We don't see it nearly as much as we used to.

NNAMDIMy favorite is, why can't these people learn to drive? I said, do you live around Washington? Here is Joseph in Silver Spring, Md. Joseph, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

JOSEPHWell, thank you for taking my call. I've got a question. I -- to follow up with two of your other callers, I have a friend that is French and she said that in France, a lot of people are retiring to Cameroon and they vacation in Cameroon and that Cameroon is like a French culture with very low cost. And I want to find out how would I find out more out Cameroon or are you familiar with retirement there or even moving? I'm not ready for retirement quite yet, but...

NNAMDIJack Goldstone, Cameroon is a former colony of France?

GOLDSTONEYes.

JOSEPHYes. And...

GOLDSTONEI have a student from Cameroon actually. It's a place that doesn't pop up on the radar that much, but that's because it's not involved in so many of the civil wars that we find elsewhere in Africa and that we hear about in the news. The trend I'm talking about here, about elderly moving abroad is indeed growing popular in Europe, just the destinations are different because people are vacationing and becoming familiar with different places.

GOLDSTONEA lot of British are moving to Singapore. French are moving to French West Africa or North Africa. Others are moving to places like Thailand, that they visited. They love the food. They love the people. It's very low cost and so there are a plethora of destinations. I think you're right. We shouldn't think just of Mexico or Costa Rica or Panama. There's a whole world out there and it's developing fast.

NNAMDIWe have producers on the staff whose parents moved to Laos so there you are. Joseph, thank you for your call. We got this from Barbara in Leesburg. Laura Cohn, "One of our main concerns about moving out of the country is being able to see our children and grandchildren regularly. It is cheaper to live out of the U.S., but how do people deal with these travel costs? That being said, one of our sons is an attorney in Seoul and lives there with our grandchildren and another lives in coastal South Carolina. We don't see them often enough now and here we are in northern Virginia." The cost of traveling back and forth.

COHNThat is a tough one. One of the benefits -- again, back on my Panama band wagon. But one of the benefits of Panama's Pensionado Program is you do get discounts on airfare. But it is an issue. I mean, before you make a big move like this, you need to look in the mirror and say to yourself, you know, do I want to be far from my family or do I want to be close to my family? Maybe I'll just go south of the border. Maybe I won't go the Philippines. So it is a consideration and it is a very important question, particularly if you have a lot of grandchildren and you love your grandchildren.

NNAMDIJack?

GOLDSTONELet me say something about that. We do have the notion that it would be close to family and spend holidays together, but that's becoming more difficult no matter where you live. As you said, you're in northern California. You have family that have been sent to Korea to work. Because the United States economy is aging and not growing as fast as the economies of Brazil, Africa, middle-east Asia, you know, you could choose to retire near your family only to have your family, your younger son or grandchildren told I'm sorry, we're going to have to transfer you to where our market is growing. You're going to Jakarta and going to have to be on the other side of the world.

GOLDSTONESo there's no guarantees there. The good news is, with a webcam and an Internet camera, you can watch your grandchildren grow up. I wouldn't say it's anywhere near as good as holding them in your arms, but given that that's not guaranteed no matter what, the blessing is you can still talk to them, see them and share that. And you can do that, you know, every day, every other day. My mother-in-law lives in Las Vegas, which is most of the continent away from us. It's in the same country, but we rarely see her except we stay in touch that way.

NNAMDIHere's Connie in Falls Church, Va. Connie, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

CONNIEHi Kojo, thanks. Hi Jack. It's Connie, Rory and Ian on the phone.

GOLDSTONEHey guys, great to hear from you.

CONNIEThank. And congratulations. I have a question that was partially addressed by the last questioner. What additional cost -- what cost are we transferring to other parts of the system if we encourage retirees to move abroad, not just in terms of travel cost, but possibly increased child care? Do we lose cultural capital? Do we lose the ability, um, for grandparents sort of to pass along cultural identity? And what effect will this have or will it be mitigated by possibly exporting a bunch of American culture abroad?

GOLDSTONEWell, I think you hit it right on the head, when you...

NNAMDIFascinating question.

GOLDSTONE...pointed to the second point of exporting American culture abroad. A lot of people who retire, of course, don't just want to hang on a beach or glide silently into old age. They want to be active. They want to be engaged. A lot of them want to be engaged with young people as teachers or mentors. But guess what? There are not going to be that many young people in the United States in the future. Birth rates are still a lot lower than they were 20 or 30 years ago. So if we have a lot of people who are getting into their 60's or 70's and want to stay active teaching, mentoring, guiding younger folks, there are going to be greater opportunities for them to do that abroad and that's going to be good for, I think, spreading a positive side of American culture and, of course, for improving things in the destination countries.

GOLDSTONENow, you are right. There is a certain lack of family cohesion and continuity if parents move away. But as I say, we found that in our family, that if the grandparents move to Arizona or Nevada, if we're still here on the east coast, we're not getting much of that anyway.

NNAMDIHey Connie, thank you for your call. We move on now to Larry in Bethesda, Md. Larry, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LARRYYes. Here's -- I have a question about the jobs. In view of the economy in the U.S. and a probably increasing hot topic that's going to be -- I can see someone -- or a political movement or whatever -- sorry about stuttering -- about sending social security checks overseas when you're having jobs lost in places like West Virginia. You know, there's nursing homes out there and other rural areas that they started sprouting up about 15 years ago.

NNAMDIWell...

LARRYAnd that's just my concern there is...

NNAMDIWell, this is one of the issues that Jack Goldstone addressed in his piece. So Jack, you might want to respond.

GOLDSTONEYou're absolutely right. There's concern about sending social security checks or other Medicare checks abroad, but I think it's based on a misunderstanding of who really gains and who loses. We don't want to be taking jobs away from nursing home workers in the United States. But remember, there's going to be 30 or 40 million more retirees in the next 20 or 30 years. It's absolutely not going to happen that everyone in this country chooses to depart, whether for family reasons or because they're attached or because they own their own homes. I would still expect that the majority of Americans who retire will stay in this country.

GOLDSTONEBut when we're looking at doubling the number of people who retire in the next few decades, we have to say how can we afford to provide a reasonable lifestyle and adequate medical care for an extra 30, 40 million people? And that's where the option of moving abroad is helpful. Now, frankly, if you have someone who has been laid off of work, was hoping to retire in a few years but now is facing a diminished nest egg, that person is saying, gosh, I have to find a job. I'm going to have to work for an extra ten years. And that person counts as someone who is unemployed and seeking work and that person definitely has a problem.

GOLDSTONEAnd we're saying, you know, if you look at maybe taking your retirement when you had planned to a year or two from now, but go to a less expensive place, you may be able to keep the plans you had. And then, you're not going to be among the group -- large group of people who are unemployed and looking for work. So we really think it can help people. We certainly wouldn't expect everyone to want to do this, but if enough people make this attractive choice, I think it helps everyone.

COHNAnd I think that's probably why Dan's conferences are so crowded. Because people see the next egg shrinking and they're thinking, well, where can I go? I really, really want to retire when I wanted to, where can I go?

GOLDSTONEYeah. The other thing I have to say is people who have made this move are smiling because if they bought property in Mexico or in Belize in one of these coastal retirement communities, they've seen that investment double or triple over the last five or six years while, you know, those of us at home have been watching our home prices go the other way.

NNAMDIAnd Dan Prescher, this -- and Larry, thank you for your call. Dan Prescher, the skeptic in me says that retiring abroad is not always paradise. It's one thing to go on vacation somewhere and say I want to live here. It's another thing to buy groceries there, drive your own car to get around and find a repairman to fix the sink. How often do people end up disillusioned and move back home?

PRESCHERIt happens a lot, Kojo, to be honest. And as Jack and Laura have both indicated, living abroad is not for everybody. It takes a certain tolerance for unpredictability. It takes a sense of adventure. It at least takes a willingness to try to get on the phone and speak a language that's not your native language and get something accomplished, which I can say from experience can be pretty daunting. But it also keeps you very engaged, really on your toes. It's never a dull moment. So I guess it depends on what you're looking for in your retirement. If you want something that really engages you a hundred percent and gets all your cylinders firing at the same time, moving to a foreign country for you.

NNAMDIAnd finally, Laura Cohn, we got this Facebook posting from Duke. "My dad moved out of the country when he retired. He moved to Mexico. The culture in the area is more relaxed. People always seem happy. The service is excellent, and yes, I will be moving there because of the weather. I love my home, Hawaii, but it's way too expensive there. I once got dental work done for almost 75 percent less than I would have here in the United States. So my point is I'm already taking language courses every year because I plan to retire in Mexico just as my dad has done. Not to mention that I work in long-term care within healthcare policy so I don't need to be convinced."

COHNWell, here is the -- it's the reverse of what we were saying earlier about missing your grandchildren. If you move somewhere beautiful where the weather is fabulous, people are going to come visit you, including your kids.

NNAMDILaura Cohn is associate editor of Kiplinger's Personal Finance. Lara Cohn, thank you for joining us.

COHNThank you.

NNAMDIJack Goldstone is a professor of public policy at George Mason University, and author of "The New Population Bomb: The Four Megatrends That Will Change the World," which you can find in the edition of Foreign Affairs for January/February 2010. One of the trends that Jack discusses is retiring abroad. Jack, thank you for joining us.

GOLDSTONEMy pleasure, Kojo.

NNAMDIAnd Dan Prescher is special projects editor with International Living. Dan Prescher, thank you for joining us.

PRESCHERThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDI"The Kojo Nnamdi Show" is produced by Diane Vogel, Brendan Sweeney, Tara Boyle, Michael Martinez, and Ingalisa Schrobsdorff, with help from A.C. Valdez. Diane Vogel is the managing producer. Our engineer today, Andrew Chadwick. Dorie Anisman was on the phones. Is it true she's retiring abroad? Podcasts of all shows, Real Audio archives and CDs are available at our website, kojoshow.org. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.