MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. The Washington metropolitan area is unique, with seven counties and 13 municipalities across two states plus the District of Columbia. It's a conglomeration of local governments that happen to make up a single metropolitan region. The cities and counties very often deal with their own issues like schools, affordable housing and traffic and pay little attention to what's happening next door or across the river, even though most of us live and work and go out across those boundaries, not just within them. And things like air and water don't recognize the boundaries at all.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIRegional planners have said for decades that many local issues could be more effectively tackled with more cooperation, but it's an uphill battle. There are some success stories. Metro, believe it or not, is one of them. But there's a lot more than can be done. Joining us in studio is Roger Lewis. He is an architect. He writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. Roger, good to see you again.

MR. ROGER LEWISGood to see you. Thank you.

NNAMDIDo you think people who live and work in the D.C. area consider themselves Washington residents, or do they think of themselves as, well, I'm from Bethesda, I'm from Bowie, I'm from Fairfax?

LEWISThat question always has two answers. If that person is talking to somebody who lives around here, they will identify themselves by the locality in which they live. If they're in Chicago, Houston, Paris, anywhere else, they will say, I live in Washington.

NNAMDIThat's been my experience. Let's see what our callers have to say about it. Where do you say you're from, Washington? Or do you give the specific town or city even you're traveling out of town or out of the country? 800-433-8850 is the number to call. You can go to our website, kojoshow.org, make a comment there. We're talking about how you build a region. Roger, how does that affect people's ability to think regionally rather than locally? You'd think that if people are out of town and the say, I'm from Washington, they think of themselves as a citizen, a resident, a taxpayer in the entire region, not just the specific jurisdiction.

LEWISWell, we have a metropolitan area, I think most people would agree, and not argue with the notion that they live in a single metropolitan area that's defined by the people who study such things. The -- but I think we also have to recognize that all politics is local, and I use that aphorism all the time, because I don't think it's a choice in either or between being -- thinking regionally or thinking locally, I think you have to do both. I think that there's centuries of tradition in the United States, of course, of managing ourselves locally...

NNAMDIYeah.

LEWIS...local governments. I don't think that's gonna go away. What would be new, though, would be to have a metropolitan-wide form of governance for those issues and those problems that are truly regional in metropolitan. And that's where you get into trouble, because it generally means that the local jurisdictions, the local towns and cities and counties have to give up some autonomy. There's some trade off there. And I think we are still in the process of trying to prove that the benefits outweigh the cost. That is, the benefits of doing things cooperatively and collaboratively across the region outweigh the sacrifices or the cost or the loss of some autonomy that would come with that.

NNAMDIWell, you're an architect. You design buildings. Why should someone who lives in Montgomery County care about affordable housing in Arlington, especially when they've got issues of their own?

LEWISWell, that's probably one of the most challenging arguments to make, which, you know, what is -- it requires showing that there are linkages, relationships, that are not obvious, that are not apparent, between what happens in one jurisdiction and what happens in another. For example, the extension of the metro line into Dulles Airport is going to, obviously, directly and most approximately affect people that live near or property owners near that line.

NNAMDIMm-hmm.

LEWISBut in fact, that activity over many decades may generate a lot of business and a lot of activity for which people living in other jurisdictions could be employed. I mean, the--but you have to make these links explicit. You have to actually illustrate and show people that what happens in fact in Fairfax County could have an impact on people living in Prince George's County.

NNAMDIAlso joining us in studio is Jim Dinegar. He is president and CEO of the Greater Washington Board and Trade -- Board of Trade, another one of the success stories, I guess, of a regional organization and institution. Jim Dinegar, good to see you again.

MR. JIM DINEGARNice to see you, Kojo, and hello, Roger.

LEWISHello, Jim. Welcome.

NNAMDIJim, we talked at the beginning of this broadcast about the metropolitan area including seven counties, 13 municipalities across two states plus the District of Columbia. Having so many local governments make up one region, is that unique?

DINEGARWell, it is very different from most of the regions around the country. And Roger put it great in his article of August 14 when he talked about herding cats, and there's a lot to be said for that. Having said that, where there are good opportunities, those cats go in the same direction, and where there are threats, those cats seem to operate. And those are two very important issues. When we look at emergency preparedness in this region...

NNAMDIMm-hmm.

DINEGAR...I think we play very well together. And when there are opportunities, economic development opportunities, Metrorail to Tyson's and to Dulles, Wilson Bridge, some of the bigger opportunities that come down the road, the region does tend to play very well with each other. I think Metro is a shining example in the past of how this region galvanized. The region is galvanizing again behind making it even better.

NNAMDIWe began the broadcast by talking also about people and how they identify themselves, especially when they're out of town. We suddenly got a few responses to that. Here is Dee in Arlington, Va. Dee, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DEEHi, Kojo. I love your show, and thank you very much for letting me on. I think it's an interesting question because I think of two different questions when I hear that. One is "Where are you from?" and "Where do you live?" Because I'm an Army brat, so my answers a little bit different. But if I'm in the Washington, D.C. area and somebody says, where do you live? I'll say Arlington. But if they ask me, where you're from, I'll say, I'm an Army brat. I'm from all over. Whereas if they say, are you from here? I'll say, yes, I'm a Washingtonian. Because although I live in Arlington, I've lived in Bethesda, downtown D.C. and all points in between in the past 20 years. So this is an interesting question because you do identify yourself with your, at least, address, if not where you're from. So I think it is a very personal identifier.

NNAMDIIf you are in Colorado and somebody says, where do you live, how do you answer?

DEEWashington.

NNAMDIOkay. That answers my question, right?

DEE(word?).

NNAMDIThank you very much.

LEWISDifferent from years past, though. It used to be when there were big issues in the District of Columbia that were problems, people would say they were from outside Washington.

LEWISNow, they're proud enough to be able to say they're from the Washington area.

NNAMDILet's see what Robert in Occoquan has to say. Robert, your turn. Go ahead, please.

ROBERTKojo, thank you for listening and thank you for your show. I really appreciate it.

NNAMDIYou're welcome.

ROBERTI just want to comment. I think -- I moved to Washington, D.C. from North Carolina in 1963. And when I travel, wherever I went, if people said, where you're from, I'd say Washington, D.C., but I think the last 25 years -- and I travel extensively. I'm a contractor, and I used to work for the U.S. Treasury, and I still contract to them. When people say, where you're from, I say, Northern Virginia.

ROBERTAnd I think a lot of the people that I had know and live near in Northern Virginia will say Northern Virginia. And we do that because Northern Virginia is politically and economically distinct from the rest of the state. And I think given the political diversity we have in the metropolitan area of D.C. and more and more, you know, where am I from? I'm from Northern Virginia. And I think Northern Virginia is growing as a political dynamic force, and I think you'll see more and more discussions of Northern Virginia versus D.C. and it being distinct from D.C.

NNAMDIRobert, when you're in London and somebody says, where do you live, what do you say?

ROBERTIn London?

NNAMDIYes.

ROBERTI'd say Washington, D.C.

NNAMDIThank you kindly.

ROBERTI mean if I'm in the -- but if I'm in the U.S...

NNAMDIYeah.

ROBERT… I'd say Northern Virginia.

NNAMDIGot you. Thank you very much. Care to comment?

LEWISWell, it illustrates, again, the complexity, the geographic complexity of this region, and that is Northern Virginia is part of Metro Washington, which involves the District and two states. And simultaneously, it's part of Virginia, although there are people in Western Virginia, Southwestern Virginia and Tidewater Virginia, who question whether Northern Virginia is part of Virginia.

LEWISI think it's very important to recognize how diverse and how fragmented, in fact, this whole political and geographic landscape really is. I mean, there are -- and within Arlington, so we have a caller -- Dee calling from Arlington. I mean, within Arlington, there's tremendous diversity. There are people in Arlington who probably spend more time in D.C. or in Fairfax County than in Arlington County, which a county which by the way looks a lot like a city.

NNAMDIOne more I'll take. Dan in Alexandria, Va. Dan, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DANHello, Kojo. It's a great show as always. Like your first caller, the woman, I've lived in all three jurisdictions in the area, and I consider myself a Washingtonian. But one thing when I lived in Chevy Chase, I really resented the county surtax that -- and we had the governor of Baltimore, William Donald Schaefer, taking our tax money for Montgomery County and P.G. County and pouring it into Camden Yards, so I was never a Baltimore Orioles fan, and I'm glad we have the Nationals here in Washington.

NNAMDIDan, thank you very much for your call, and Dan is calling from Arlington -- from Alexandria, Va., Jim Dinegar.

DINEGARWell, two dynamics, Kojo, and things to keep in mind. One about this region, there are a lot of people who are from here, and then there are an enormous number of people who aren't from here. And when one asks, where are people from, people were often -- would often more tell you that they're a Texan or a Californian or a New Yorker, though they've been here for 10, 20 and 30 years. Those people who adopt here as home, we still think they need to push it a little bit more to really adopt here.

DINEGARBut let me just reiterate or highlight one point. Baltimore is about as far from Washington, D.C. as Dulles Airport is, and yet we're losing out on the realization that Baltimore and the Maryland corridor is becoming a whole lot more important to the growth of this region, not taking anything away from the wonderful growth in Northern Virginia. But with BRAC and Cyber Command and the National Institutes of Health and this whole Quintero Plaza and the effort that Kenyon Ghole (sp?) has going on, I think that in just a few short years, we will be talking about the Greater Washington region that encompasses more of what is typically considered the B. W. Parkway and 95 North.

NNAMDIDan, thank you for your call. But, Jim, that brings us to the larger problem which we're discussing here. Sometimes, it's difficult enough to get one city or township's government to resolve an issue. How do you get several to work together? It's a challenge you face a lot on the Greater Washington Board of Trade.

DINEGARPushing, pulling, showing incentives, showing the upside, there are all these horse trades to go on, but I will say that shy of a governor for the region, which isn't going to happen and not a recommendation by anybody, they need to understand that there are shared interests. And I think Roger hit it very well where it's your turn this time. And later on down the road, it will be somebody else's turn. And if you play fair and communicate well, keeping people posted on the issues, there's more of an upside.

DINEGARArlington instituted a bike share program, and the District of Columbia instituted a bike share program. And initially, those share programs didn't cross borders and worked intraoperatively. Now, they do, and it's a thousand or 1,100 bikes big, and it's a great program that's about ready to kick off. There is that realization that many people work in one area, live in another, maybe even have kids in school in another. We are more interdependent than not. And I think as more people realize that, it helps the communications flow.

NNAMDIThat is in fact the reality. And we did have both Arlington and the District of Columbia on last week discussing that bike sharing program. But, Roger Lewis, how do we -- if that is indeed the reality -- get people to think and act regionally? What would it mean for us to be doing?

LEWISWell, as one of the callers pointed out, a lot of the resistance acting regionally has to do with money, taxes. And...

NNAMDIAs you said, all politics is local.

LEWISYeah. And then, I think a lot of it has to do with education, with getting people in fact to understand the interconnectivity, the interdependencies. And that's a very, very hard -- that's a very hard thing to sell. But in fact it's the only way, I think, that eventually you're going to get people who are living in, let's say, Montgomery County to care about Prince William County's problems and vice versa. So what I think is necessary is to persuade the four to five million people -- I'm not sure what the actual number is these days but...

DINEGAR6.2.

LEWIS...it's probably over -- yeah, it's about -- yeah, we're at six million. I mean this is a very big region. I think we have to teach a couple of things. I think there are economies of scale that people need to be it. Understand what that means, economies of scale. I should interject. I remember apropos the bike discussion. I was once a consultant to a county up in Pennsylvania where counties are very weak and the townships are very strong. There are 20 townships in this county. They didn't talk to each other. Everyone had its own -- every one of the 20 had its own snow plow and snow plowing programs. These are counties that had sometimes townships that had 2,000 people in them. And the other way we got them to meet in one room at the same time -- these 20 jurisdictions, these 20 townships -- and talk about whether maybe they could get together about snow plow operations was to hit them between the eyes with a 2-by-4 as one does with the proverbial mule.

LEWISAnd we did that by convincing them through some white papers, some education. That if they kept doing what they were doing, they were gonna go broke and they were destroying what they were selling. It happened to be a county with a lot of tourism. That was the only way we got them to show up, so to speak. I think -- in other words, you've got to convince people that there are benefits, that it's actually better, that there are true benefits to regional collaboration to collaboration and to taking advantage of economies of scale. We've seen that, of course, to some extent with transportation. The other -- I mean the thing that most people will, sort of, listen to are discussions about transportation and taxes. That usually will get their attention.

NNAMDIJim Dinegar?

DINEGARWell, a couple of things. And speaking from Roger's perspective, you know, it's ridiculous that there are different building codes in Maryland, Virginia and the District of Columbia. You lose out on the efficiencies of operation. And if you are a developer, a homebuilder, an apartment builder or others, you lose out as a company for those deficiencies of operations to just get one side screen door, to just get one handrail. To do -- to lose out on that is just sort of an easy one. But then, bringing it up bigger -- the District of Columbia fixes their fire apparatus actually at a beautiful, big old facility over by the ballpark, a pretty valuable spot of land.

DINEGARI imagine Prince George's County fixes their fire equipment. I imagine Arlington fixes their fire equipment and Alexandria and Fairfax. Couldn't there be one central place that has the highest end repair for the fire apparatus? And then you can not just close down those facilities but employ people across the borders. We get stuck on borders too much. And I'll use one more example, and that's something that the Board of Trade is working on in the early stages. It is transportation-related. You have a MARC Train coming down from Maryland...

NNAMDIOh, yeah.

DINEGAR...into the District of Columbia. And God help you, it doesn't cross into Virginia there. But the VRE train coming up in the morning from Virginia -- if you have a job that's now in Maryland because of BRAC or growth or your job shifted but you couldn’t sell your home -- you have to terminate at Union Station. Well there is the ability for those trains to do a run-through at L'Enfant Plaza. So the MARC Train can flip its sign once it hits Virginia and become the VRE, the VRE becomes MARC, more efficiency of operation, more interoperability. Use your fare card to transfer to Metro. We have the ability to do it. We don't have the technology in place yet or the wherewithal to have those cross-border conversations but they're starting.

NNAMDIThis is a cross-border conversation. Regional cooperation is what we're talking about. I'm inviting your calls. Would you like to see greater cooperation among jurisdictions in this region? And if so, in what area specifically? 800-433-8850. What is the area of concern to you? You can also send us an email to kojo@wamu.org. Join the conversation at our website kojoshow.org or shoot us a tweet @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWe're discussing regional cooperation with Jim Dinegar. He is the president and CEO of the Greater Washington Board of Trade, and Roger Lewis, who visits with us once or twice a month. He's an architect. He writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. Roger, we were talking earlier about reminding people that there are whole lot of people in this region who do not live and work or entertain themselves in one jurisdiction. As a matter of fact, they are probably a minority of people who live and work in the same jurisdiction in this area.

LEWISThat would be my expectation. I mean, I think that's a reality. In fact, years ago, there were studies done by planners that show that within one household, if you mapped the movements and activities of people just in one household, let's say a father, a mother, an adolescent who drives, a younger child who doesn't drive, they have completely different experiences of the environment which they operate the, you know, the father might be as moving around the country because of travels and in his perception of what -- of where he lives and what space he occupies that's completely different than mom, who might be shopping and going the other direction to do shopping or working in some other jurisdiction. And then the kids, they map their own little urban realms, I think, it's what they've been called.

LEWISSo even within one household or certainly within one block, you could probably discover that almost all of the people in that locality occupy the region, as opposed to simply the jurisdiction in which their residence happens to be located.

NNAMDIGonna get to the calls in a second, but before we do, Jim Dinegar, we do not have a regional government. However, we do have the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments or COG. For listeners who aren’t familiar with it, can you explain what COG is and does?

DINEGARWell, the Council of Governments and Dave Robertson is their executive director, Kwame Brown is their current Chair, really knits together the regional government leaders that counties, the city councils, the boards of supervisors -- shares best practices, does very important work on things like the air quality index, transportation issues associated with this region and more, and they put forward the plan on Region Forward. In fact, identify some of the critical opportunities and threats to the growth in this region and how working together, not just government by itself, but working with businesses, working with civic leaders and others, how that -- this region can move forward.

DINEGARAnd I have to say that the Council of Governments is a very good partner with the Greater Washington Board of Trade. We've enjoyed a wonderful partnership and get good things done, currently involved in a joint effort on governance for WMATA, the metro task force for best practices in their governance. It's a very effective organization, I think getting more effective by the day.

NNAMDIBut underscoring the importance, the effectiveness and the truth of Tip O'Neill's famous oft-repeated statement, all politics is local, COG does not have political regulatory or fiscal authority. So what could be...

DINEGARIt is not -- it can, I think from the bully pulpit, move things along, it can share best practices. As I said earlier, communication is the key and what infuriates the Board of Trade and other business leaders, not from COG, but at times when Maryland decides, here's what we're going to do to cut greenhouse emissions. And then Virginia says, we see and we raise you, and the district sits back and says, oh, you think that's high enough? (laugh) We raised it. You can't have three different levels of things like greenhouse gas emissions in an area where we all share the same air, if you will.

DINEGARAnd the Council of Governments, I think does a very good job of communicating across borders, bringing the people together, emergency preparedness, they excel at bringing the emergency preparedness, people together, so that we are prepared and learn from the lessons of the things like snow storms and the rest.

NNAMDIRoger, you have a copy of Region Forward in front of you. COG is asking all of these regional leaders to create a new regional approach to solving key challenges -- herding cats.

LEWISI think, it always is herding cats, because when the rubber hits the road, as they say, and people have to start looking at their fiscal condition in this local jurisdictions -- that's when the problems arise when it comes to getting true cooperation and getting everybody moving in the same direction or operating off the same page. I'm looking at their list of goals, you know, they have goals offered to land use. And I am really glad Jim mentioned earlier the -- something -- the bane of architect's existence. We do design in urban planning, that is at separate different building codes and zoning ordinances in every single jurisdiction, some of which are in truly in conflict. Climate energy, health and human services as mentioned, transportation of course, economics, education, environmental circumstances that Jim's talked about, housing -- we haven’t talked a whole lot about affordable housing or work force housing and public safety.

DINEGARThese are the things that are called out in Region Forward. And though there -- I think there are things everybody is concerned about. I don't think you have any disagreement among all the members of COG or the Board of Trade as to the fact that these are the issues we all need to deal with. But getting them, addressing them and actually taking actions to address them is challenging because, again, it ultimately gets back to specifically earmarking funds and taxation and fiscal decisions.

NNAMDIHere is Caira in Silver Spring, Md. Caira, you're on the air. Go ahead please.

CAIRAHi Kojo. Thank you so much for taking my call.

NNAMDIYou're welcome.

CAIRAI am a real estate agent practicing in Maryland and Virginia and I do not have my D. C. license yet. But I continually find it so complicated that I, in fear, you have to purchase three licenses and be up to standard on all the laws and addendums in everything in all three areas. It would be so much nicer if, you know, we could all agree on one standard for the D. C. metropolitan area. Just my thought. Curious to here what your panel has to say about that.

NNAMDII'd be fascinated to hear what you have to say about it, Roger. (laugh)

LEWISWell, I have the same problem. Being an architect, I have to be licensed by States or the District of Columbia. So to practice in Metro Washington, I had to have three licenses. I had a Virginia license, a Maryland license and a District of Columbia license. This is -- at which is -- which makes no sense, because I was working in all those jurisdictions at the same time.

NNAMDIHow does that affect what happens when we fly into or out of Washington? What we see when we fly into or outside of Washington the fact that they have different building codes and virtually every major jurisdiction?

LEWISI don't think that makes -- I don't think the building codes are the issues governed by licensing of architects has much effect. Where the effects are visible have -- has much more to do with land use policies and zoning ordinances. So we see right away. All we have to do is we can cross the river at Rosslyn or Crystal City, and we see things that you don't see in the District of Columbia. Or if you look into Montgomery County or other -- you -- as soon as you cross the border, you can begin to see differences that have less to do with architecture than they do with urbanism.

NNAMDIJim Dinegar?

DINEGARWell, there are opportunities down the road. And I go on the realtor side of things and certainly with the architectural license. As long as the jurisdictions can get their money, the fees associated with those licenses, there is a way to work it through, I think, into the future. Sort of think the easy pass -- there used to be an easy pass for Maryland, and a separate one for Virginia, and a separate one for New Jersey and then they all knitted it together. It is ridiculous that a realtor can't just show properties in the Greater Washington region and have the license to be able to do that or an architect to be able to practice here, because the seismic issues in Arlington or (laugh) similar issues on seismic as it relates to Bethesda.

DINEGARWhen you know -- the earthquake notwithstanding just a few weeks ago. And those are the types of things that when the architectural license has to factor them in, it is madding when you look at the zoning and the building codes and the rest that were so disparate, because we were created of two states in the District of Columbia. We're not even addressing the federal presence, which is a whole another bag of worms.

NNAMDII had a caller who wanted to address that but I think he dropped off. Caller -- you can call us back, 800-433-8850, about federal jurisdiction over the District of Columbia. Caira, thank you very much for your call. Here is Ian in Frederick, Md. Ian, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

IANYeah good afternoon, everybody. It's a wonderful show. I always enjoy you, Kojo, very much. I have sort of want to make one point but -- and it occurred me that I don't see much in a way of cohousing. And the architecture actually familiar with direct and the comments of the idea of cohousing where -- I know one exists in Takoma Park. There's one in Frederick. There's a number of them around where, you know, you have a common house and you have commonly shared houses all around. But to me, you know, it really -- it pushes the whole idea of urban green space, and it's a good way to live. In that sense of another -- do we need a washing machine, not only we need a TV set that can be shared commonly.

NNAMDIIan...

IANI was throwing that idea and it's not, you know, it's so wise and there are more, that sort of thing.

NNAMDIIan, I'm guessing from your accent that you're from England?

IANYes. Very good guess, Kojo. (laugh)

NNAMDIOkay. Did that have anything with your idea about cohousing at all?

IANIt does a little bit because, you know, there's a lot more of it in Europe. There are, actually, a lot of it in Denmark. But it's slowly catching on here, in this country. And I'd like to see more of it. I'd like to see more of it in D.C. And I'm just interested from your architect's standpoint. Are they familiar with the idea? And have they done any design with it comes to house or, you know, whether they'd be proponents of it or oppose to it or what.

NNAMDIHere's Jim Dinegar, first, and then Roger Lewis.

DINEGARRight. I won't take the architecture standpoint, but I will tell you that D.C. and the greater Washington region probably leads the country, if not the world, in group housing. You can't go anywhere on Capitol Hill without running into some group of students who are interns, who are people out on their first or second job. What happens in this region, though, is that housing is so expensive that when those people pair off and get married or enter into long-term relationships and decide, well, I'd like to buy a house or move to some place nearby and get my own house, it becomes very difficult to afford and they end up moving to Lynchburg, Va. or Iowa. And we lose a lot of people because of the difficulty with the affordability of housing. So I'm interested in Roger's comments and Ian, your comments about cohousing.

NNAMDIRoger?

LEWISWell, Ian refers to some minutes, actually, a very specific type of development. I am very familiar with cohousing as it's practiced in Europe and, in fact, I'm familiar with the Takoma Park project because I was -- I remember being approached about that. I like to think, actually, that the first project my firm ever did, which is a cluster of houses in northwest Washington where I would have, actually, had a shared laundry facility with the bank, wouldn't finance it that way. But I built -- one of the first projects I did was a cooperative, a housing cooperative, who's the only cooperative of single-family houses, detached houses in Washington, D.C.

LEWISNot exactly the same as the cohousing of which you speak. I actually don't think the issue of whether we enable or don't enable cohousing, it has a whole lot do with regionalism challenge. I mean, I think it's something that there are lot of obstacles to creating cohousing projects, but there are opportunities to create it. I agree with Jim. I think there has been more of that here. Actual developments where a number of families -- usually what happens in Europe is a number of families get together and they acquire a piece of property or they lease a piece of property in long term and design and build and finance, jointly, a place to live and share a lot of things including even cooking and eating. So, I -- cohousing is an interesting concept, I think it will never probably be as popular here as it is in Europe.

NNAMDIIan, thank you.

IANI disagree. I disagree. It is very popular. And I would ask you to, you know, check out the Mid-Atlantic Cohousing Association. A good friend of mine, Ann Zabaldo, in Takoma Park, is a good person to get in touch with, a good contact person. But thanks very much for your time and...

NNAMDIAnd, Ian, thank you very much for yours and for your call. We move on to Jim in Baltimore, Md. Jim, you're on the air. Go ahead please.

JIMThanks. A long-time listener, first-time caller. I'm interested and intrigued by the institutions that help regionalize us. And to make the point that no matter where you live in the area, when friends come from out of town, you might go to the Smithsonian, take them to Mount Vernon. You know, you crisscross all the regional lines. And I remember an incident when the Nationals first got started, they hosted an event at National Harbor Place. And the D.C. interests were, sort of, put off by that. But when you sell a convention nationally, you say come to Washington because we can see the Nationals play. We can take you to the Smithsonian. And I think these institutions really help regionalize us.

NNAMDIJim Dinegar, the cities and counties in our area, as Jim has been pointing out, directly compete with each other to attract businesses and federal funds. That probably doesn't help.

DINEGARWell, it doesn't. But, you know, sometimes you have to paint that picture slightly different. And Jim raises the issue of the nationals at Nationals at National Harbor. Well, National Harbor was aggressive in courting them. But that aside, there was a pretty good back and forth with the District of Columbia, the hotels and all the rest in the District of Columbia and taking some real concern about this what would be considered a competing convention center in big hotel. And I, not gently but very strongly, reminded them as did others that it is better to compete here than to compete with Cleveland.

DINEGARAnd we were thrilled that Opryland brought their Gaylord Entertainment Center here to National Harbor. It's a jewel on the Potomac. And it really has been a shot in the arm for Prince George's County where we think that's the next big play in this region with the transit-oriented development for Metro as soon as Prince George's County really takes hold of that. That's a county on the rise. But the inner fighting, well, sometimes, if you can paint it differently and understand that it puts this region in a stronger competitive position vis-à-vis other regions, our competition candidly is California, and we've been doing quite well in attracting Hilton and SAIC and CSC and more companies to follow. If I were California, I'd be looking at greater Washington going, what's going on there as opposed to the in fighting that we sometimes tend to develop too much here.

NNAMDIJim, thank you for your call. We've got to take another short break. If you have already called, stay on the line. We'll try out best to get to your call. If the lines are busy, shoot us an e-mail to kojo@wamu.org, or you can go to our website, kojoshow.org. Join the conversation there. Do you cross out of your town or county on a daily basis for work or to go out? What level of regional cooperation would you like to see and what specific area? I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIHaving a conversation on regional cooperation with Roger Lewis. He's an architect. He writes the Shaping the City column for The Washington Post. Rogers is also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland College Park. Also joining us in studio is Jim Dinegar. He is president and CEO of the Greater Washington Board of Trade. We got this comment posted on our website by Jess. "As the BRAC, which of -- those who know, is the Base Realignment and Closure efforts, like the Mark Center in Northern Virginia and reconstruction of St. Elizabeth's Hospital for the Department of Homeland Security, who from the DOD and the GEO are looking at transit support of these large trip generators and detractors? If we know when these facilities are opening, why don't we have transit options? Light rail, metro rail, under construction or at least planning to support them." Jim Dinegar.

DINEGARWell -- boy, it is a real sore point, certainly in Northern Virginia as it relates to the Mark Center. And I would have to give an enormous amount of credit to the likes of Congressman Moran and with the two Virginia senators and others pushing very hard to get the attention of the Department of Defense that this will not stand, that you can't add these thousands of workers to the roads and expect that things are going to move along seamlessly. We're big on the hot lanes, high occupancy toll lanes. We're very big on transit-oriented development as well as getting more transit riders.

DINEGARYou have to have confidence in the metro system and in Mark and in VRE and timeliness to be able to change your way of travel to get to work. But when you look at the implications for not only BRAC, as the caller or the writer lays out, it is BRAC. It is the National Institute of Health. It's the Cyber Command up in Maryland at Saint Elizabeth's. There is an enormous amount of shifting and new development in this region that will have implications for the roads. The Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments is looking at it and certainly working with the Department of Defense and the U.S. government overall. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be much money available, and they're not freeing it up. And they are not paying as much attention as I think our local congressional officials would like.

NNAMDIAnd, Roger, there are people who will say even if we're talking about extending Metrorail out to Dulles, as is taking place, there are people who would say, I don't use it. I won't use it. Why should I pay for it?

LEWISWell, again, that’s...

NNAMDIWhat do you say to those people?

LEWISWell, I think what you have to do again is show them that in fact there is a benefit to all the population of the region from having a network that includes a rail line to Dulles. And it has to do with demonstrating how these not-so obvious effects can -- will take place over time. It's worth pointing out, in fact, that what we're talking about is not a new idea. I mean, there are -- people have been advocating for a long time regional thinking.

LEWISI have a note. The -- Stewart Schwartz of the Coalition for Smarter Growth sent me a note, reminding me that 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago, really, but 20 years ago, for example, there was a -- almost 20 years ago -- something called a new approach integrating transportation and development in the national capital region. And over and over again, planners, people like, well, COG of the trade organization, have said there should be a linkage between where we develop, where we most intensely develop and where there is transit. And that includes non-rail, as well as rail transit.

LEWISWhat we have tended to do is defer, in my opinion, defer making investments in transportation until things get so bad that we're just -- we're forced to do something, either build extra lanes, put in a road. We haven't done what the Europeans do very well, which is they lead development with infrastructure. They plan the infrastructure upfront. They invest in it. They look at it as a very long-term investment. And development follows and development is channeled, or it's focused on where the infrastructure is. We haven't done that very well in the United States.

NNAMDIHere is Lewis in Potomac, Md. Lewis, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

LEWISHi. It's really great to talk to you about this, particularly Mr. Lewis. And when you're speaking about expanding the area and renewing in the area, I think it's really important that we apply universal design principles as a baseline. One of the baselines is when we redeveloped Tyson's Corner as an urban place, and when we redeveloped Rockville Pike as an urban place, and maybe even places like Cantera. Howard County is already including universal design in there, RFPs for development and so forth. And this is about making sure that our communities are prepared physically for aging and for those with disabilities to be welcome, included and full members of the community.

NNAMDIRoger?

LEWISWell, we should -- for the listeners who may not know or be familiar with the term universal design, universal design refers to design or creating environments which are accessible, physically accessible to all, to everyone, 100 percent of the population, with or -- people with or without impairment. So I think, increasingly, certainly in my profession, we are very committed to universal design. I think -- so I think the caller's point is well taken. I think it's the right way to approach the creation of new or redeveloped communities.

NNAMDIJim Dinegar.

DINEGARWell, I'm gonna switch a little bit from universal design to say that one of the biggest challenges within the region is frankly the unemployment levels in different pockets within this region. We have very low unemployment pockets in the Greater Washington region and some of the highest unemployment in the United States. Some of the dynamic, not all, but some of the dynamic is that we're not a manufacturing or industrial area, and that it's this bit of this provincial mindset that says that people from Virginia won't hire people from the District of Columbia, or people in Maryland won't hire people in Virginia because, well, these jobs should go to people from Maryland, or these jobs should go to people from the District of Columbia, when just the opposite is true.

DINEGARIf the opportunity exists, regardless of where you live but the opportunity is there, you should get there. And with rail to Tyson's and to Dulles, it's going to open up more job opportunities for people to work at Tyson's beyond just the people who live and work in Northern Virginia. Or to handle the different issues associated with a major international airport at Dulles, more people from the District and from Maryland are going to be able to have transit access there. But I would say when you look at BP Solar up in Frederick, Md., when you look at some of the plants that we have around, District residents are almost prevented from participating in those opportunities because of a lack of transit opportunities that they have.

NNAMDIWe had -- and, Lewis, thank you for your call. We had several emails from people wanting to know if there are models of working regional cooperation anywhere else in the U. S. that you can cite. Given the uniqueness of a number of jurisdictions in this area, that would be fascinating.

DINEGAROh, sure. I mean there are ones not just in the United States but Canada. But as it relates to the best practices now that we're studying with Council of Governments on Governance for WMATA Metro, we're looking at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and that of course incorporates Connecticut. We're looking up there with the MTA as well. It's a curious setup that they have up there, but in many respects, Connecticut doesn't say, I need seats on the board. They say we're paying this fare. They're paying this share, if you will, and we demand this level of service. And so there are different arrangements that need to be considered. We -- no getting around it, we are unique among the jurisdictions around the country. There can be shared cities in California, but they're all in California. They can be shared issues associated with counties and more in Texas, but they're all in Texas. And here, it's four different jurisdictions when you overlay the federal government.

NNAMDILewis, thank you very much for your call. Now that you mention the federal government, we got a comment on our website. "How does Congress' control over D. C. play a part in this discussion of our regional issues?"

LEWISWell, I think that the Congress is a watchdog in certain respects, and it has eased up a lot as the District of Columbia has found its feed over the past several years. When all is said and done in the economic downturn, when we emerge from all of this, the District of Columbia will be one of the top finishers, not the bottom finishers. And I think that's going to really capture a lot of attention around the country in part -- in a large part because of the congressional mandates about spending in the District of Columbia the good work of Nat Gandhi and his crew and the rest.

LEWISBut when you look at the Congressional oversight, it does get very provincial as the sort of federal city. I think Congress has stepped back in large part of over the past several years because the District has been getting better and it has participated more. When you look at Nancy Pelosi, she's originally from Baltimore and she's got strong affinity to this region. Steny Hoyer, the number two in the House, is from this region. There's a clear understanding that the power base in Congress is affiliated with the greater Washington region, probably stronger than in any time at its history.

NNAMDIThis is where we make the pitch for the vote in the U.S. House of Representatives. Here is Kimberly in Washington, D.C. Kimberly, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KIMBERLYHi, Kojo. Thank you so much for taking my call. I was wondering if you and your guest could talk about the importance for regional development of the Purple Line.

NNAMDIRoger.

LEWISWell...

KIMBERLYI'm sorry? (laugh)

NNAMDIYou -- we're waiting into a controversy in the last minutes of the broadcast.

LEWISWell, I think the Purple Line is probably going to be successful. I -- there are some details that may be debatable. I think I should perhaps mention that I'm among those who favor at College Park with regards to the University of Maryland campus that it should run along campus drive and not be diverted into some by-way. So I mean, I think -- what I worry about most is again that it -- on the downside is that it's a fragmentary investment. I wish I could -- what I'd love to see is a complete network plan, you know? And there -- I think there really is a plan, but so much attention is focused just on this one segment, this one fragment that people may be losing sight of the fact that it ultimately, some day, will be part of a network. And that's very important to keep in mind.

NNAMDIJim.

DINEGARWell, in certain respects, we're a victim of our own success. The hub-and-spokes approach of the metro system has created these new hubs, Silver Spring and Bethesda. And what happens is you now need to connect them. With Roger, it shouldn't be piecemeal. Our concern with the Purple Line is that any move to make it a bus rapid transit instead of the real solution, which is the light rail system, needs to be put to the wayside because the developers and the people who will really make the economic development opportunities happen for community will rely on the permanency of a light rail as opposed to a bus rapid transit bus route that could change at a moment's notice, and there's no sense of permanence. That's what going to bring the developers and it's going to bring the economic activity as you see in Ballston, Clarendon and Courthouse.

NNAMDIThank you for your call, Kimberly. Arlene in Springdale, Md. Arlene, we're circling back to the beginning of the broadcast. Thank you for waiting. Go ahead, please.

ARLENEThank you. Yeah. Just referring to your opening, which was very good, where do you live? I was recently in Ohio at the pro-football Hall of Fame program and immediately people ask where you're from. I said, Washington, D.C. Then when I run across somebody who was from the post in a local area, I said, well, I live in the Greater Metropolitan Washington Area. I'm in a suburb just about 8 miles outside of Washington, and we go on from there.

ARLENEBut, you know, Kojo and Mr. Lewis and Dinegar, what I find is people don't really know exactly where they live sometimes these days. And I'm wondering what, you know, the cause of that. Is it because of some SMSA re-designation -- I'm sorry, that's Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area. It used to be a term that the census bureau used as – I've been out of the government for a while, so I don't know if they still do it. But one example is, I'll ask a person where you're from, they'll say Upper Marlboro. I'll say, well, do you really live in Upper Marlboro or you live in Largo, Kettering, Croom, Brandywine, Mitchellville. And then I wanna know who makes the decision to knock a town off of the map. Out in the College Park area, years ago when I was going to school, there was a place called Lake Land. And it was a high school, Lake Land High School, that when -- that was my school used to play. And then in this area, Lanham-Bowie area, there was a place called Vista. Well, those places, you know, are gone. And I'm just wondering what happened.

NNAMDIYou make a very strong case as we run out of time, Arlene, for a broader approach to regionalism because jurisdictions do change from time to time. I'm afraid that's all the time we have. But, Arlene, you called very early and I wanted to make sure you got in on the broadcast. Jim Dinegar, thank you for joining us. Good to see you again.

DINEGARThank you, Kojo.

NNAMDIJim Dinegar is president and CEO of the Greater Washington Board of Trade. Roger Lewis, always a pleasure.

LEWISThank you. Same here.

NNAMDIRoger Lewis is an architect. He writes the "Shaping the City" column for The Washington Post. He's also professor emeritus of architecture at the University of Maryland, College Park. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.