Apple rolls out a new mapping program for the iPhone with some major glitches, including moving the Washington Monument to a new address and placing the Baltimore Aquarium in the Inner Harbor. Big-box stores ditch Amazon’s Kindle e-Reader. The Computer Guys and Gal are back to explore the latest triumphs and fail’s in the tech world.
- John Gilroy WAMU Computer Guy; and Director of Business Development, Armature Corporation
- Allison Druin WAMU Computer Gal; ADVANCE Professor of the STEM Senior Women's Council & Co-Director of the Future of Information Alliance, University of Maryland
- Bill Harlow WAMU Computer Guy; and Hardware & Software Technician for MACs & PCs at Mid-Atlantic Consulting, Inc.
Computer Guys And Gal Picks
Suggestions for enjoying the fall season, mapping alternatives, ways to mark the 30th annual “Banned Books Week” and more.
A spooky tale for Halloween
- A fascinating account of survival in the wastelands of Day Z for ArmA 2, a “realistic” first-person shooter
- The spookiness continues! PlaceRaider malware is designed to steal your life
Maps and map alternatives
Yes, yes, Maps in iOS 6 is regressive, but there are valid reasons for the transition
Don’t just complain, do something! Reporting errors in iOS 6 Maps
Waze: offers decent turn-by-turn navigation and excellent crowd-sourced traffic info
In the news
Sure, the iPhone is the most popular camera, but when you’re ready to graduate, check out the developments at Photokina
Banned books week
The 30th annual Banned Books Week runs from Sept. 30 to Oct. 6, 2012. Follow it on Twitter by using hashtag #BannedBooksWeek.
The American Library Association is reminding us this week to celebrate First Amendment rights to free speech, which includes the right to read and write books that are considered unorthodox or controversial. Some of the most famous books that were once banned include J.D. Salinger’s “The Catcher in the Rye,” Harper Lee’s “To Kill a Mockingbird,” John Steinbeck’s “Of Mice and Men” and Mark Twain’s “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.”
A virtual read-out: Banned Books Week YouTube Channel
In honor of Halloween, scary tech stories
Apple falls from grace: Mapping program horrors!
Who’s clicking on your website? BOTS!
Scary Games: Jack-o-lantern
Go camping and take that tech backpack
Best summary of the new iPhone: “iPhone 5 can go the distance, but gets lost”
iPad users would skip brushing teeth before giving up the iPad … Mints, anyone?
Like a magician, listeners are dazzled by the new smart phones and tablets. Meanwhile, the real story is in payments.
John beats Digital Miss Manners to the punch when it comes to unusual gifts: Social shower curtain!
MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Yeah. That slightly menacing sound can only mean one thing.
MR. KOJO NNAMDIIt's The Computer Guys and Gal here to celebrate Halloween a little early and explore spooky tales of tech gone wrong. For years, the tech world has -- was bewitched by Apple and its latest and greatest devices, but last month, suddenly the spell was broken. Apple's new mapping program was making some unorthodox claims about local geography, moving the Washington Monument to a new corner of The Mall across Independence Avenue and placing the Baltimore Aquarium underwater in the (unintelligible).
MR. JOHN GILROYUnder water. Well, partially it is.
NNAMDIAll of a sudden, Apple was in the midst of a public relations nightmare known as Mapplegate, but that isn't the only scary going on. Here to share some more with us is John Gilroy. He is director of business development at Armature Corp. Hi, John.
GILROYGood morning, boys and girls. Good afternoon.
NNAMDIGood afternoon. The Apple map has...
NNAMDI...thrown his timing off completely. Allison Druin is ADVANCE professor of the STEM Senior Women's Council and co-director of the Future of Information Alliance at the University of Maryland. Allison, thank you very much for finding your way here.
MS. ALLISON DRUINOh. Thank you, Kojo.
NNAMDIAnd Bill Harlow is hardware and software technician for Macs and PCs at Mid-Atlantic Consulting, Inc. Hi, Bill. How is it going?
MR. BILL HARLOWGoing well. How are you?
NNAMDII am doing well also. You can do well by joining this conversation. Call us at 800-433-8850. Send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. You can send us a tweet, @kojoshow -- remember to use the #TechTuesday -- or go to our website, kojoshow.org, and join the conversation there. For Apple, it played like a horror movie when Apple unveiled its newest mobile operating system, iOS 6. It had lots of features to get people excited, but attention soon focused, Allison, on its new mapping program, the mapping program horrors. What went wrong?
DRUINOh. You know, some companies think, let's just license a little data, mix it up and, you know, put a little covering on it. And, poof, it's there, right? No.
DRUINNo. It's not there. Actually, Bill and I were just talking beforehand, and, you know, I'm having a real problem with the mapping program because of the way I usually use maps. And it's mostly because I don't use the addresses. I use the names of things.
DRUINAnd so Google has fabulous database of tags, and Apple doesn't have it yet. And you're sent off into Never-Neverland. It's so upsetting.
HARLOWWell, I use addresses, and, actually, I got to beta-test this for a while. And, yeah, somehow, I managed to get to every destination I wanted to just fine.
DRUINIt's so wrong.
NNAMDIWhat was wrong, Bill? Exactly what happened?
HARLOWI think the biggest thing is just that -- I mean, Google Maps is so mature. I mean, they've had a lot of time to get this right. I remember when it first came out, there were a lot of things they didn't get right. But, you know, they didn't -- Apple didn't have the luxury of continuing to license this, so they had to kind of build everything from scratch. Licensing, I think, from TomTom, I think some from Waze 'cause I think Nokia, another direct competitor, they own Navteq now.
HARLOWAnd we're at a point where Apple have to kind of start from scratch, and a lot of landmarks and other items of database apparently are in the wrong spot. Driving over here, I just saw cars aflame. Everybody driving off the road from using Google...
GILROYApple (unintelligible) yeah.
HARLOW...and from using Apple's maps. It's just a complete disaster.
GILROYYou know, I want to go and go over the grave of Steven Jobs and watch and turn over as he plays, you know, Peggy Lee, "I'm Sorry" in the background. I don't know if Steven Jobs would stand up to run to people and say I'm sorry. He'd say, line them up and get out the swords and start taking off heads.
HARLOWI think he would have -- it would have something different, something along the lines of, hey, look, this is a starting point. But I think the biggest thing is -- well, two things. One is this is regressive. I mean, Google Maps supplied the data for Apple's maps app in iOS 5 and prior. That's a very mature data set, and we're not used to seeing that sort of regression from an Apple product.
NNAMDIWell, if Google was supplying that, Google has a great mapping product, why did Apple feel compelled to build its own from the ground up?
HARLOWWell, let's see, Google is now a direct competitor, right? Back when the first iPhone came out, Eric Schmidt was still on the board at Apple...
HARLOW...and things were a bit different, you know.
HARLOWSo I mean, I think they realized, sort of like with -- when Steve Jobs discussed Flash, and he said, look, this is -- you know, we don't want to have a third party responsible for something critical in our operating system. And maps have become very critical. So I think it's terrible that, you know, this is a regression, but I don't know what option they would have had.
GILROYIt's almost Apple 101 because they're going -- we're going to make it ourselves, you know?
HARLOWYeah, yeah, exactly.
NNAMDIGlad you said maps have become very critical. That's the question I'd like to put to our listening audience. Are we too reliant on mobile maps? Give us a call, 800-433-8850.
HARLOWI'd say if you can't find the Washington Monument without a map, then, yes, you are too reliant.
GILROYBut that just moved.
DRUINBut the spoken turn-by-turn feature of this mapping program is great, OK...
DRUIN...as long as you put in the exact address, and you make sure you double-check yourself before you leave the house by looking at Google Maps. So, I mean...
NNAMDIBut since you never have exact addresses...
DRUINI know. That's the problem.
GILROYI flew without -- I went -- I flew without a net, and I got to all my destinations just fine. And that's the other thing, too. I'm glad you mentioned turn-by-turn 'cause apparently that's one thing that Google wasn't going to give Apple without a renegotiation of some of the terms in the map.
DRUINThat's right. It's true. But now, Google has just come out with Google Map Maker, which is actually making Google Maps even more accurate because it's a crowdsourcing way of, when you see something that's wrong, they actually have the ability for you to go in, you know, average person on the street, and just make a correction. And so they're collecting more and more information faster than Apple.
GILROYThere's got to be an editor involved...
NNAMDIWithout Google Maps, John Gilroy, I would never be able to get home from the local bar.
NNAMDILast month, Apple won a massive case against Samsung after it accused the rival manufacturer of stealing its intellectual property. That case was also widely seen as a shot across the bow against Google and its Android operating system. But all big tech companies are more than competitors. Samsung is also one of the most important component suppliers to Apple iPhone, which brings up the question, is it possible for these companies to separate their products and their interests and do so successfully?
HARLOWApparently, they have, right?
HARLOWI mean, I think Samsung...
DRUINNo. It's not -- they haven't been successful. I mean, I think...
DRUIN...that's the key, is the question is, you know, what do you consider to be success? And...
GILROYMaking lots and lots of money...
DRUINYeah, yeah. But...
GILROY...in this case.
DRUINWell, in this case, is this really successful if they -- if you've got the, you know, the CEO, Tim Cook out there saying, well, look, folks, we really messed up, but if -- in the meantime, why don't you use Google Maps on, you know, on the Web until we fix this? I mean, that's not successful, folks.
GILROYI think they're going to have to figure out what the swim lanes are because look at, you know, our good friend here, Steve Ballmer. He's saying that, well, Windows and that was all nice. Office is -- we're going to move into a model that's hardware and services provider, and they're going to move into the same swimming pool. And so you're going to have a lot of sharp elbows here.
GILROYYou're going to have, you know, Apple and Steve Ballmer. And if they don't figure out, I guess, legally who owns what and where, I mean, what about this product coming out? Windows 8, I mean, is it going to be a success? They're betting a lot of money on the success of moving into, in fact, the Apple space.
NNAMDIWell, some people were intelligent enough not to rush to buy the iPhone 5. Bill Harlow surprised us last month when he announced he would be one of those who would not be rushing to buy it. At long last, a dispassionate view on the pros and cons, perhaps you flagged the review of the new device by gadget guru Rob Pegoraro, John Gilroy. What did Rob find?
GILROYYou know, he had a -- he have talked about this great headline, and he said, well, this is a great headline, is that the iPhone 5 can go the distance, but it gets lost.
GILROYThat's a really nice summary of what it can do. You know, it talks about it can do this, can do that and this and everything. But, you know, this is a little minor problem here, and -- but, you know, if you put it in perspective, well, five years ago, you know, people had a TomTom in their car, and they had never dreamed...
GILROY...well, I guess, I never dreamed of using my phone for taking pictures, never dreamed my phone for...
HARLOWWell, that's the thing. We all have these smartphones now that, you know, we take for granted we have free turn-by-turn directions in this little thing in our pocket. We're not spending a few hundred bucks extra for another GPS. We get the maps app on the iPhone that, by and large, works pretty well. But it's a little worse than Google Maps, so, you know, pitchforks and torches time.
DRUINMakes sense, makes sense.
NNAMDIHere is Adam in Warrington, Va. Adam, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.
ADAMHi, Kojo. Thanks for having me.
ADAMI just wanted to say that I do pizza delivery as a living, and we rely on Google Maps on the Android OS for pretty much my entire job. All our mapping is done on Android before we leave the store. A few days ago, I guess there was a problem with AT&T, and, for some reason, none of the mapping apps were working. And it pretty much shut down our delivery business. We're a delivery-only restaurant, and we couldn't work for a period of about three hours because the maps were not accurate. I'll go ahead and get off and let you talk about that.
NNAMDIWell, don't get off yet because do you feel you're too reliant on mobile maps at this point?
ADAMI do. I do. I'm very capable of using a regular map, a paper map. But we rely so much on the Internet ones, we don't have even paper maps.
NNAMDIYeah. Good question. Well, we'll take a pepperoni -- well, no, go ahead.
GILROYCall up a guy over 50 and...
GILROY...take another way around, you know? Call me up.
NNAMDISomebody who actually knows their way around.
HARLOWI will say that that's one of the reasons why I like NAVIGON MobileNavigator, and I'm sure there are other GPS apps like this as well that you download -- it's a purchase. I think it cost me 50 bucks when I bought it, but you download the apps. And they're local and stored on your phone for offline use, so it doesn't matter if you have a data connection. You can route -- you can do everything you need to do and use it just like a full GPS.
GILROYGood tip for the pizza guy.
NNAMDIThat's NAVIGON, N-A-V-I-G-O-N, dot-com. You also like Waze?
HARLOWI do. This is actually kind of neat. I got to see this grow because, when it first came out, I adopted it early just to mess around with it. And their maps were terrible, but that wasn't necessarily, you know, a big problem for them because the whole point was they would crowd-source better maps. As you drove with the app open, it would actually route and leave breadcrumbs as you drove, and it would help them improve their existing maps.
HARLOWAnd now, if you use Waze today, it's actually a pretty robust mapping app. It's got great crowd-sourced traffic information, and they've added turn-by-turn directions. And they keep adding more and more to it, and it's totally free.
GILROYSo is it a tracker or a smartphone?
HARLOWIt's a bit of both, I think.
NNAMDIWe've got an email from Mary in D.C., who says, "I have an iPhone 4. Apple wants me to upgrade the operating system. Will the upgrade delete Google Maps from my phone?"
DRUINAnd it's terrible, and, oh, my goodness, my husband, Ben, did this to me. And I didn't even notice what he was doing.
GILROYDid this to me, oh. And he's banished to South Africa because of it.
DRUINI'm so frustrated. I didn't even notice because I was working on something, and he walks in my office. He says, I'm just going to upgrade a few things.
DRUINAnd then I know -- and then...
GILROYBeware of the wrath.
DRUIN...I looked up and said, what was it that you just upgraded? And, yes, you can't go back. Don't do it.
GILROYYou don't mess with the director of the future. She's the director of the future. Don't mess with her, whoa.
DRUINOh. No, you don't want to do it.
NNAMDIIn addition to which one of the really big changes with the new iPhone is a move away from the style of USB connection used since the original iPod, how significant is that?
HARLOWWell, they never had a USB connection. They had a dock connector, which was...
HARLOW...this wide 30-pin connector, and now, it's something called Lightning. So you've got Thunderbolt and Lightning, which, of course, is very, very frightening.
GILROYOh, no. That's...
HARLOWYou knew that was coming.
DRUINAnd it rhymed.
GILROYThat was very good. I like that a lot.
HARLOWAnd the thing about Lightning, of course, is that, you know, the -- this dock connector has been around with us, for what, nine years, I believe.
HARLOWAnd, you know, I personally have invested in a lot of accessories. I even put a thing in my car that's semi-permanent that uses a dock connector. And if I bought a new iPhone 5, I'd have to try to figure out how to make this work.
GILROYBuy another car.
HARLOWSo it's not standard USB, but, I think, you know, like a lot of things Apple does, they figure, OK, what's -- can we take something off the shelf and use it? Does it suit our needs? No. We'll just invent something from scratch.
NNAMDIHere is Dale. Go ahead. Were you finished?
HARLOWOh, I'm done.
NNAMDIDale in Greenbelt, Md...
NNAMDI...you're on the air, Dale. Go ahead, please.
DALEYes. How is it going, Kojo? Great show. And, actually, I still have the iPhone 4, but I upgraded to the new operating system. And I have the maps. And what I usually use the maps app for is if I'm in an area and I need to find a particular street, I just type in the street name and then the map app will generally pull it up. And then it could give me, you know, the local vicinity -- like, the basic vicinity of where the street is. But what happens now when you type in a street, it gives you streets, like, in Texas and Oklahoma.
DRUINYeah, yeah. It's so true. It's terrible.
DALESo that's, like, one of the problems I have. So I'm really kind of, you know, I don't -- go with the iPhone 5. The Android model was probably where I'm moving to which is really sad 'cause I've had the iPhone 4 and the 3, and it's kind of disappointing. So that's all I had to say pretty much.
NNAMDIWell, thank you for participating in what we now call Allison's nightmare.
NNAMDIHere is Randall in Washington, D.C. Randall, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.
RANDALLYes. I think people rely on the maps too much. I hardly ever use them. However, I was driving one day -- I mean, to make my point, I was driving one day, and a young lady, she hit my car, just turned right, right into my car, was in the far-right lane. She was in the middle lane, and she hit me. And we pulled over. She got out of her car, and first thing she said was the navigation system told her to turn right.
GILROYThe computer made me do it, the new defense.
GILROYCall up all the lawyers in town. The computer made me do it.
HARLOWHer iPhone reached out and jerked the wheel.
GILROYYes. It's like the Twinkie defense if I combine those.
NNAMDISo you're suggesting, Randall, that she needs to also use her eyes in addition to navigation system?
RANDALLWell, all I know is she took responsibility for the accident, and my car is getting fixed. But I don't -- that makes me not want a navigation system even more.
NNAMDII guess the navigation system should come with an insurance policy.
GILROYRight. Brought to you by State Farm.
NNAMDIRandall, thank you very much for your call. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we will be continuing our conversation with The Computer Guys and Gal. We should know that we are talking about this in terms of maps. But the bigger issue, I guess, is geolocation and who controls data, but that's for another discussion. For this one, you can call 800-433-8850 or send email to email@example.com. You can send us a tweet, @kojoshow. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.
NNAMDIThe Computer Guys and Gal are here. Bill Harlow is a hardware and software technician for Macs and PCs at Mid-Atlantic Consulting, Inc. John Gilroy is director of business development at ARMATURE Corp., and Allison Druin is ADVANCE professor of the STEM Senior Women's Council and co-director of the Future of Information Alliance at the University of Maryland.
NNAMDIYou can call us at 800-433-8850. We'll get back to maps in a second for those of you who called. But I want to move forward because the 30th annual Banned Books Week, we are in it right now, Allison Druin. Tell us about this.
DRUINYeah. It's -- for 30 years, people have been celebrating First Amendment rights, OK, freedom of speech, free and open access to information. Well, people ban books, and they've been banning books for a very long time, OK? And so there is the 30th annual Banned Books Week, and this is basically a sponsored kind of week between librarians, book sellers, publishers, journalists, teachers, readers and so on. And so you can find them online, bannedbooksweek.org. And Bill Moyers is actually the honorary chair of the Banned Books Week, and...
NNAMDISo who's the real chair?
DRUINI don't know.
NNAMDIBut go ahead.
DRUINAnyway, but, I mean, you know, the people say, do people really ban books today? And the answer is, yes, they...
NNAMDII was shocked when I went online and saw the top 20 books.
DRUINThey really do. They really do. I mean, we're talking about, you know, "The Hunger Games," OK, banned. You know, you have everything from J. D. Salinger's "Catcher in the Rye," "To Kill a Mockingbird," you know, Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men." I mean, it's just amazing. And, you know, they're also talking about removal versus restricted.
DRUINAnd it's very interesting because there are some schools where, you know, most frequently they're trying to protect children, you know, from violence, offensive language, sexually explicit stuff. And, you know, and so they'll -- what they'll do is restrict you. So they'll put it in the library but not -- in a school library but not in the classroom or take it out of curriculum. And it's very sad.
GILROYYou know, if all books are electronic in the future, what if someone like Emperor Bill is in charge and he decides to ban electronically? It's all gone. No more J. D. Salinger. I mean...
DRUINThat's right. That's right. So...
HARLOWWell, luckily, I don't think it'll happen. I mean, once something's on the Internet, it's pretty tough remove it. So that's (unintelligible).
GILROYWell, Emperor Bill will know.
NNAMDIHowever, in the interim, you can map where the censorship is. If you go to bannedbooks.com/mappingcensorhip, you can find an interactive map.
DRUINYeah, yeah. This is -- I was playing around with this...
HARLOWThat's really cool.
DRUIN...the other day. And if you click on any of these markers, OK, and it -- what will happen is information about the censorship case is going to just magically pop up there and tell you about it. And you can also add information into it. The American Library Association is actually up -- now keeps it up and is updating it.
DRUINBut it actually was a joint project with ALA and the Kids' Right to Read Project. Amazing. There's also something on YouTube which you all should go and do which is wonderful, a virtual read-out, which is -- essentially there's a YouTube channel where you can upload a video of yourself reading a part of a banned book. So every...
HARLOWThat is thrilling.
DRUINI think it's so cool.
GILROYYeah. What a snoozer.
HARLOWI could post a photograph, and people will think it's a video of me reading.
GILROYI'd rather have, you know, a pumpkin ale.
DRUINOh, it is so cool, though. I mean, because then what...
NNAMDIPlus, John would have to learn to read first.
DRUINAll right. Well, that's a point. But you have, you know, you've got Whoopi Goldberg reading Shel Silverstein poems. It's so cool. So...
HARLOWThat's pretty cool.
DRUINI mean, and so, guess what, this becomes then a useful tool for people in the classroom that, you know, maybe they don't want to necessarily, you know, use the traditional book. Then they can show Whoopi Goldberg.
GILROYSo you're encouraging not reading?
DRUINNo. Actually, I'm...
GILROYThat's what it is.
DRUIN...encouraging all forms of access to information, and that's what the Banned Books Week is all about.
NNAMDIWell, John Gilroy, a lot of people like to access information on their iPads. They like to access information on their iPads so much that it has now become more important to them than certain basic health function.
GILROYWell, I was doing a survey in the lobby with a gentleman named Bill and I said, well, there's a lot of people -- I think 10 percent of the people who use iPads, they use them in the bathroom. I was wondering if -- what your habits are, Mr. Bill?
HARLOWWell, I plead the fifth. But one thing I...
DRUINTMI, TMI. I don't want to know this.
HARLOWWhat I think is hilarious is back before, I think, these devices were -- back before tablets were made mainstream by Apple and Apple didn't have one to sell, Steve Jobs famously said that what are these good for other than checking out the Internet while you're in the bathroom.
NNAMDIWell, it apparently turns out that some people would rather skip brushing their teeth than they -- I mean, why do people conduct surveys where they ask people whether or not if they have a choice between brushing their teeth and using their...
GILROYIf you have a choice between losing your water or losing your iPad, they'd rather have their water, you know, turned off for the whole day. Is this an addictive? Is this something that, you know, people are out of control? Then when we see people...
NNAMDIAnd no, Ben, we're not talking about you.
NNAMDIWe're going to the phones. Here is Eric in Great Falls, Va. Eric, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.
ERICWell, the best thing about the phone mapping is the blue dot. And like you guys were just saying about reading, you need to have more than one source. I ride a motorcycle all over the country, and, you know, I can't get along without paper maps, the computer and the phone. But the blue dot helps a lot of times just in a location of where in a map I am when you get away from the city streets where the mapping software works pretty well.
ERICBut you get out to where, you know, in the country, and, you know, they just -- it just doesn't work very well at all. And you have to upgrade them all the time, so it's kind of a pain.
NNAMDISo you use a combination?
ERICYeah. That's the only way I can get around.
NNAMDIThank you very much for your call. Linda in Potomac, Md. would like to weigh in on the iPhone 4. Linda, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.
LINDAYes. Thank you. I just took a trip from where I am in Potomac to Ohio. And I used my GPS, my Magellan in my car, which I plugged in, and put my destination in there.
LINDAWhen I -- on the trip home, I was starting to look at my iPhone 4. And the destination -- and I never put anything into my phone. But yet, in the section -- I'm not very tech savvy, but in the map section, when I was looking at it for traffic purposes and the drive home, I noticed in the area that it's got the destination of what I put in to my Magellan. In my iPhone, I got that destination and the directions to get to the destination in Ohio. How did this get into my phone when I didn't put it there?
HARLOWEither it's a very popular destination that's just on the map, or someone must have put it in at some point. I mean, there's -- it doesn't communicate with -- the iPhone doesn't communicate with the Magellan and vice versa, so that's the only explanation. At some point, it must have been input.
LINDAIt's just very strange because it has other destinations and things in there that I never put it in. I never used it for that. So you have no explanation. You can't figure that out?
NNAMDINo. It's October. It's Halloween.
DRUINIt's ghosts and goblins.
GILROYExactly. It's a haunted iPhone.
HARLOWA haunted iPhone.
DRUINThat's -- it's a really good question. If anybody has an answer, please, let us know.
HARLOWThe only thing I think of is maybe they were contacts in her phone at one point, and therefore, they just show up in the list of bookmarks.
GILROYBut if people -- Bill is driving in Northern Ohio, he probably will go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, so that would be a popular destination -- I don't know or...
LINDAYeah. And I didn't even…
GILROY...something like that.
LINDAYeah. I mean, actually, I didn't even get to the Hall of Fame. I wanted to do that. Now, you're rubbing it in that I didn't get there.
LINDABut, anyway, it doesn't make any sense to me because I know I'm the only one who had the phone. There was no one else who could have put this destination into it.
NNAMDIMaybe one of our...
GILROYSpooky. Very spooky.
NNAMDIMaybe one of our listeners can help us with that. Linda, thank you very much for your call. We've been talking about iPhones, but we've got an email from Kanye in Fairfax Station, who said, "I have a Nokia Lumia 900, which I would put head to head or receiver to receiver with the iPhone. I have a great turn-by-turn navigation system. The phone is easy to use as a phone." What a radical idea. "I love the Windows system. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about the iPhone. My Nokia is a great phone, and I wish more people would use it so they stay in business."
HARLOWIt is a great phone.
NNAMDIThen we got this from Martin: "Nokia Lumia 900 right now or 920 at the end of the month. The 920 is far superior to the iPhone 5, anything the Android system has to offer and comes with Nokia Maps and Nokia Drive. We have all three OSes in our house, and the superiority of the Windows phone is clear, and they cost a lot less than an iPhone." So...
HARLOWI think I would say definitely go with the 920, right, 'cause I don't know if the 900 will update to the latest Windows Phone 8. So, yeah, get the latest and greatest in that case.
NNAMDIOn to Norman in Baltimore, Md. Norman, your turn.
NORMANYes. My question is more -- or comment rather is about the software behind all of these apps and gadgets which are making our lives easier.
NORMANI mean, if you talk about the technology, let's say, medical devices, they go through a rigorous quality control. There are standards that these companies have to follow who put those devices out there and are approved before they can be used. But with software, I mean, we don't know who wrote this, what quality it is. It was some distant part of the world where they put this thing together. So relying on that kind of seems a little bit risky. And wanted to just get your comment on how do you factor that into over-reliance on these gadgets.
GILROYNorman, I'm glad you're in Baltimore because tomorrow is the start of the SCAP conference, and it's security automation. And you can go down there and ask those people. So, you know, security (unintelligible) all over country, and they come in there and talk about this. And one problem with apps like this is what happens when you update your operating system? You have to update the app, and there could be a security flaw (unintelligible).
GILROYIt's a very difficult question, and no one really knows. And people are meeting in Baltimore tomorrow for three days just to try to answer some of these questions.
DRUINWell, it used to be that one company made it all, OK? You know, they would make the software. They would make the content. They would make the hardware. Nowadays, our technologies are pieced together from many different sources. And so what you're seeing is, even though they may have done quality control because every software company, every technology has a Q&A group as a testing group.
DRUINBut the real challenge is that, you know, pieces are not under people's control. And so what may happen is something they may get in later than the other. It's very difficult. So, yes, we are seeing a difference in quality control than we used to.
HARLOWAlso in case of, you know, these smartphones, like the Android phones and iPhone, for example, is, you know, obviously Apple has the App Store, and, you know, that is a somewhat curated and submitted applications have to go through an approval process. And just like with Google Play, you know, same deal. They're -- you can put almost anything on an Android phone, which can be great. But if you're concerned about quality or having some degree of oversight, you probably want to go through Google's Play store and make sure you're at least getting something that's been looked at.
NNAMDIHave you ever heard the speculation that Google might be thinking about buying Nokia so that Google may get into the hardware business?
HARLOWSo they're going to have Nokia and Motorola? That'll be interesting.
DRUINWell, they're already nuking Motorola.
HARLOWI was just thinking about quality assurance, you know? If the FDA says if a toy comes from China, it can't have lead paint. OK, so FDA has a standard, you know, to comply with, I understand it. What if a chip is made in China and what are you going to hold the standard for? There's no spyware on that chip before it gets imported?
HARLOWI mean this is what Allison's talking about is, how do you do quality assurance for very, very complex products that are changing every three months? And all of a sudden, we're walking around with devices that are made in China and has, who knows what, spyware in there. It could be anything.
NNAMDIBack to the spookiness again, Bill Harlow.
NNAMDI...is apparently designed, in your view, to steal your life but is nevertheless cool?
GILROYIt's worth it.
HARLOWSometimes you get robbed by a cat burglar who's so skilled, it's like, you know what, all my diamonds are missing, but that was impressive.
HARLOWAnd this is one of those times. This isn't actually out in the wild. It's really more of something that was designed to show off what you could do. And PlaceRaider works by -- once it's installed, it can actually surreptitiously take photographs using the built-in camera on the phone. And it also notices what the orientation of the phone is 'cause they all have, you know, gyroscopes and other motion sensors built into them.
HARLOWOnce it's taken all these photos, it can then piece them all together and actually create a virtual 3-D view of the room it was in. So it's a way to actually, you know, case a place without ever physically being there.
NNAMDIAnd this came as a result of government research?
HARLOWIt did. And I think it's kind of fascinating. It's not something I want to see on my phone to peek into my life, but...
DRUINI was going to say it's a little scary.
HARLOWIt is scary, but it's impressive technology.
NNAMDIHow about something less scary, virtual Halloween -- virtual pumpkin carving?
HARLOWFind me a serious topic.
DRUINA serious topic.
NNAMDILet's cut that pumpkin online, Allison.
DRUINYeah. Well, you know, for some people that have little kids that, you know, you don't want to necessarily hand a knife to immediately, you know, this is cool. You know, you just -- it's virtual pumpkin carving, and you can cut that pumpkin, complete with scary music, and send it as a card to somebody else. And it's good for the little kid audience, so -- and it's -- it basically, it's just a Web app.
NNAMDICare to talk about pumpkin beer? No, I'm sorry. This is...
GILROYPumpkin ale. Delicious, my favorite brand is Schlafly.
DRUINAnother show, yeah.
NNAMDIWell, I do see you do care to talk about it. Bill, a fascinating account of survival in the wastelands, a game that is legitimately scary, the wastelands of DayZ from Arma2 . Tell us about that.
HARLOWYeah. So Armed Assault is popular with people who aren't John Gilroy, a first-person shooter...
DRUINThat's a good point.
HARLOW...and unemployed single males. You know, Arma2 isn't an enterprise application, so John's uninterested. But it's a popular first-person shooter that's sort of gritty and realistic in that, you know, you can get, you know, hit once and you're down, and you can't trust anybody. It's slow and methodical and tactical. Well, DayZ -- Z for zombie -- basically turns it into a zombie wasteland.
GILROYI think this is important to know. Write this down, Kojo. This is very important.
HARLOWYeah, everybody should be taking notes.
HARLOWSo what's -- what makes it so interesting, of course, that it's an online game, and it's a survival game in this wasteland. You can't trust anybody. And, you know, anybody you see who's moving, you just, you know, you keep your distance. It's very slow and very tense.
GILROYOf course. Yes. Yes.
HARLOWWell, Dr. Wasteland got his name. It's sort of a myth in this game because he's someone who has dedicated himself to seek through the wasteland, accumulating first aid kits and finding players in need and healing them, which, I think, is fascinating because nobody trusts anybody. It's everybody for himself in this game, and here's one person who goes out there, finds people.
HARLOWAnd he's never been betrayed. He's never had someone come back and take him down later, take all his stuff. And this is really cool seeing this sort of organic storytelling and game play emerge in this game that's not even finished yet.
GILROYI think this online game is very popular in the employment line.
NNAMDIIt is fascinating. Allison, tell us about...
GILROYAll day long.
HARLOWMore useful than pumpkin ale.
GILROYOh, no, Kojo is on my side on this one.
DRUINLet Kojo talk.
NNAMDIAllison, tell us about Jack O'Lantern.
DRUINOh, Jack O'Lantern. Now, this is a free app, OK. This is for more of the G crowd as opposed to the PG-13. And basically it's an animated pumpkin who lost his body in a strange and spooky world. And basically your job as a player is to get Jack back to his body and jumping from platform to platform. It's sort of the equivalent of a Mario Bros. for the Jack O'Lantern set. And you can get candy along the way. It's, you know, it's just a good celebration of Halloween.
HARLOWVirtual candy or real candy?
DRUINI'm afraid it's virtual.
NNAMDIYou can find all of these recommendations at our website, kojoshow.org. Now, back to the map issue, here's Alex in Arlington, Va. Alex, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.
ALEXHi. Thanks for taking my call. I have a quick question. I had updated my iPad -- it's an iPad2 to the iOS 6 operating system. And I was so disappointed with the maps that I put the Google app on my homepage, but now the Google map is showing me the wrong address. And I'm not sure what it's about. I was hoping you guys have some answers.
HARLOWWell, I think you're talking about using the website, I take it. So I think in that case...
HARLOW...it's a matter of just making sure that, I think, A, you enable -- I think you have to make sure that it has the history unfrozen. That's something you can set in your Google account setting, so it actually keeps track of what you're searching for in the maps application. And within that, you can also, I think, tell it what your default home address is, too, and that might help and improve your hit rate for accurate landmarks.
DRUINYeah, because the other thing, too, is that, you know, Tim Cook, as well as Google, has said that that app is going to be a little less powerful than the actual mobile Google app.
NNAMDIGood luck to you, Alex. Thank you very much for your call. We got an email from Jeanne in Annapolis: "I'm about to buy my first iPhone. If I get an iPhone 4, will I be able to get the old operating system with Google Maps?"
HARLOWI think it depends on when that item was boxed up and put on and put out...
GILROYIt's a serial number thing, I'm sure. Yeah.
HARLOWExactly. So, I mean, the reality, though, is that if you're that concerned about it, you know, maybe don't get a new iPhone 4. I personally don't think it's as big an issue as everybody is making it out to be, but, you know, obviously, your mileage will vary. I also think that you really want to be on the latest operating system because you might find that, with time, new apps come out that maybe don't support iOS 5 and, of course, security updates.
HARLOWSo I think you have to take the bad with the good.
NNAMDIGot to take a short break. If you have called, stay on the line. We'll try to get to your calls. If not, the number is 800-433-8850, and we still have lines open. If you have questions for the Computer Guys and Gal or suggestions of your own for Halloween, 800-433-8850. You can send email to firstname.lastname@example.org, send us a tweet @kojoshow using the #TechTuesday, or go to our website, kojoshow.org, where you will find the recommendations of our panelists. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.
NNAMDIWe're talking with the Computer Guys and Gal. Allison Druin is ADVANCE professor of the STEM Senior Women's Council and co-director of the Future of Information Alliance at the University of Maryland. Bill Harlow is a hardware and software technician for Macs and PCs at -- why can't I say Harlow?
DRUINI don't know. You've only said it five years.
NNAMDIBill is a hardware and software technician...
GILROYThere we go.
NNAMDI...for Macs and PCs...
NNAMDI...at Mid-Atlantic Consulting, Inc. And John Gilroy is director of business development at ARMATURE Corp. Allison, online advertisers seem to be stricken with fear that all the money they're paying to websites for page views may not be on the up-and-up. Who's clicking on their websites?
DRUINYeah. There's things called bots. And you would think that they're robots, but they're really not. They're just specialized software that can do anything from, you know, clicking on sites to index them for search engines, to commenting, to even registering into an account. So they're fake users, and, you know, and they're getting sent out a lot because we've got search engines. We've got a lot of things that need to know what's going on out there in terms of information.
DRUINBut the bad news is this company, which I think it's called Solve Media, says that one out of 10 hits of any given website is a bot or an automated script. And that's pretty bad because, if you think about it, you know, people are paying per click, OK, in terms of advertising. And so, if you've got 20 to 50 percent of the visitors to a site that are fake, that's a lot of money wasted.
NNAMDIYes, people are paying for eyes that are not human eyes.
DRUINThat's scary, scary.
GILROYIf you look at the figures, here's what they show, is that 70 percent of clicks are organic, 30 percent are PPC clicks, pay-per clicks. What I find fascinating is a guy, Larry Page, who started Google, he has this thing called PageRank. It's a play on words. But what people -- in the future, they're saying that 10 percent of all reviews are going to be done by robots or by some kind of bots. So it throws the whole validity of paying for advertising into a big, big question mark.
NNAMDIWell, John, if I was a protester planning on disrupting, say, the political conventions, I'd probably think news about the police and the police uses of smartphones to be very scary. Then again, I was not protesting outside the perimeter. But the news story about police using wireless networks to track protesters is still sort of scary to me.
GILROYYou know, Kojo and I are old enough to remember 1968. He was in diapers. I was running around. And in 1968 in Chicago, a lot of young people got their heads beat in. I mean, it was a bad, bad time. And when I first read this story, I said, well, I don't know about, you know, the policeman tracking people with their trackers and their phones and then, you know, comes under this newspeak term of we're doing this for your own good, to protect.
GILROYAnd I'm, you know -- boy, I'm pulled in both ways. I want protesters to be protected, but I don't want the -- I mean, if that's in the wrong hands, that can go down a very, very bad path, and we've all read books, "Fahrenheit 454" and book burners and people who watch all your movements. So I'm kind of wary of police tracking my free speech. I think it...
NNAMDIYeah, the police are using their own smartphones to track protesters, and I guess that's got John and quite a few other people worried.
GILROYWell, if Bill were a cop and he'd show up with an earpiece and something on his wrist, they go, oh, he's a cop. But if he just strolls in there with his little phone, they're going to, wait a minute, he has a phone? And he can, oh, you have this guy over there, Kojo is over there. Merge, merge, merge and go get him. I just -- I'm wary of that, very, very wary of this whole police control.
NNAMDIWell, since you're also using your phones to take photographs, Bill Harlow, the iPhone may be the most popular camera. "But when you're ready to graduate," says Bill, "check out the developments at Photokina."
HARLOWYep. It is the biggest camera tradeshow or photo tradeshow in the world, hosted biannually. The latest one was in Cologne, Germany. And what I think is interesting, first, is that it almost seems like a lot of the manufacturers are sort of conceding the entry-level point-and-shoot space because, you know, smartphones have gotten really good at taking snapshots, automated, you know, no muss, no fuss, hit a button, have a decently exposed, fine snapshot.
HARLOWSo what I'm seeing is a lot of smaller, you know, compact or nearly pocketable cameras that have a lot of advanced features that serious photographers might appreciate: big sensors to capture more light, you know, better color, better dynamic range, less noise, interchangeable lenses, all the manual controls. And if you caught my eye, Fuji is kind of back. I've seen some really cool ones.
HARLOWOne is called the XE1, which has a really big APS-C size sensor, which is quite big for that size of camera, interchangeable lenses, has a hot shoe for whatever flash you want and just takes great pictures. The one that kind of cracks me up -- it's impressive, but cracks me up the same time -- Sony has one called the DSC-RX1, which is going to cost $2,800, which we're talking, like, high-end digital SLR territory, 35-millimeter full-frame sensor, a fixed 35-millimeter lens.
HARLOWEssentially, I can see, like, a photojournalist using this, someone who wants, like, a compact range finder, something that approaches what, like, a Leica could do in digital world. And this seems fascinating that Sony, of all people, would make something like that.
NNAMDIAnd we got an email from Tony in Virginia, who says, "If there's time today, would you ask your guests this question?" Well, there is time, so I'm asking. Tony says, "I'm looking to get rid of my old desktop PC and try a Mac. I can't afford the iMac or the MacBook, considering a Mac mini. What is the opinion of your guests?" Bill Harlow.
HARLOWI have one. I think it's great. I think it gets overlooked a lot.
NNAMDIThe Mac mini?
HARLOWYeah. It's -- get one. If you can get with an SSD, that'll just make it, I think, a solid-state drive. It just makes it kind of a fast, all-around, day-to-day desktop machine.
GILROYTony should know that we just had a landmark last month where more chips were sold for non-PCs than for PCs. It's the trend. That seems to be what's going on, and more people are going to get away from old desktops, and maybe it'll be like a typewriter. It's incredible.
HARLOWBut I said, if you want one, I think it's a great little machine. It is dead quiet, powerful enough, I think, for most people's needs. Just, you know, keep your existing mouse, keyboard and monitor handy.
NNAMDIOn to the telephones, we move now to Francesca in Bethesda, Md. Francesca, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.
FRANCESCAGood morning. Thank you. I'm a big fan of Tech Tuesday. I recently replaced my old Mac Air with a new Mac Air, and I was very frustrated to find that it has a new interface between the power cord and the computer. And earlier in the show, you had said something about Apple looks around to find the best parts for the project and whatever else. And to me, this is just annoying because, now, all of my chargers -- you know, I don't have a spare charger now. So why would they have changed this, and should I not be mad at Apple?
HARLOWWell, there -- I'm frustrated, too, 'cause I actually was in a similar boat going from an old MacBook Pro to the new Retina MacBook Pro, which actually uses the exact same connector your Air does. The good news is -- I mean, it's electrically identical, and they make these cheap adapters you can buy at the Apple store for a few bucks. And they just clip on to your existing adapters so all your spares can be reused.
FRANCESCAHow exciting. Thank you.
DRUINI love that.
NNAMDIAnd we may have the answer to an earlier puzzle...
HARLOWMy good deed for the day.
NNAMDI...that we had. We got an email from Mahua, (sp?) who said, "I live in Bethesda but went to California recently and found that my phone had tracked me to my destination there, even though I didn't enter anything. The GPS tracker is always on in the iPhone unless you disable it. That must be how come the person who visited Ohio had her Ohio coordinates showing up in it."
HARLOWWell, the coordinates would show up, but that still didn't explain why the actual landmarks and the routing would be there. It'd simply show you as a blue dot on the screen. That's important to know, too. If you go in the settings, you can actually set what apps have access to your location data and what don't. So if you're concerned about that, definitely take a look in the settings on your iPhone.
NNAMDIYeah, Susan from D.C. called to say that the -- our caller may have had the location services on. And, as Bill pointed out, that can be fixed in settings. On now to Patty in Annandale, Va. Patty, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.
PATTYHi. Thank you. I love your show. I have a problem with my -- I've got a very old Mac Pro, which I have to update, buy a new one. But currently, I'm having a mouse problem. I have the latest Logitech TrackMan, and I don't know whether it's just a receiver problem, Logitech's tiny receiver. But I'm constantly having to turn it off and turn it on, and I was wondering, is it possible to, instead, set up my iPad 2 with a stylus and use it like a Wacom tablet?
HARLOWYou know, that's a great question. It's something that I would personally like to do with the iPad, but I don't know if that's anything that they have built-in. I've seen some virtual mouse software. I think, actually, Logitech, of all companies, actually makes a virtual trackpad app for the iPhone, and I think it should run on the iPad as well.
HARLOWThe Wacom is a bit different, though, and I don't know there's anything quite like this 'cause the Wacom tablets can do what they call the absolute positioning, which means that the upper left corner of your iPad, if you tap on that, maps perfectly with the upper left corner of your screen. So honestly, I think if you want something that works like that, look at, like, a Wacom Bamboo. They're really cheap. They're small. They work well.
GILROYHow do you spell that?
HARLOWWacom is W-A-C-O-M, and Bamboo, just like the tree.
GILROYI got it.
NNAMDIPatty, thank you very much for your call.
NNAMDIAllison, to enjoy the great outdoors, apparently, you don't need a lot of stuff. In fact, someone would argue that stuff is what they're trying to escape when they go outdoors, but you have some cool tech that augments our experience outdoors and the elements.
DRUINWell, you know, fall is here, folks, I mean, and if it will stop raining, we can all go outside. But...
GILROYI thought you wanted them to read.
DRUINI want them to read. And you can read...
DRUINYou can go camping and read, but, obviously, it may rain on you. So, actually, they have these really cool backpacks, OK, that -- they are a little bit expensive, but they are...
HARLOWHow much is a little bit expensive? I'm just curious.
HARLOWIn your world, Allison, in your world, how much is a little expensive?
DRUINOK. So $210, but, anyway, so it's got a welded laptop pocket and waterproof zip pouch. It's got headphone routing and so on, and you can just get on your bike and go with all of your camping stuff. But the other thing that is a little less pricey is the Nike FuelBand. And that will tell you about, you know, not just every single step you take, like a Fitbit, but it's -- what it's actually doing is it's looking at your motion. It's looking at your exercise.
DRUINSo this is going to tell you about your calorie consumption, your fuel that you've burned. It's going to help you set goals, and it'll even tell you the time, and it looks really cool on your wrist.
HARLOWAnd I think, too, you get that expensive backpack filled with all your stuff, and that's like a weight vest. You're getting extra training when you walk around with that.
DRUINThat's right. Right. And so...
HARLOWGood thinking, Allison.
DRUINOK. So it's only $150, but, OK, but -- OK, John just passed out on the floor.
NNAMDIYes, he is.
NNAMDIHe's laughing too much.
GILROYAnd it looks way cool on your wrist. Nerd of the week is what it looks like.
DRUINOh, it's this nice, cool, black wristband...
DRUIN...and it's really good. But it's actually -- it really is very good at visualizing your progress. And for those people that are -- that have to do exercise every day, this is a great way of getting you going.
NNAMDIBill, talk a little bit about how smoke and mirrors and fakery led to the creation of a legendary game.
HARLOWSo people who aren't John Gilroy are playing this game called "StarCraft," which is a very, very -- probably the most popular real-time strategy series.
GILROYBill, I'm going to go over to the unemployment line in Falls Church and ask the guys there about it.
HARLOWYeah, ask about it. They'll tell you all about it. You'll get some great gaming tips, too.
GILROYI'm sure you will. Thirty young guys all in the unemployment line telling me about WoW, WoWser.
HARLOWSo Blizzard, a development studio who's known for "StarCraft" and "World of Warcraft," back in '96, they were working on a little title called -- I think code named Orcs in Space, of all things. And it's supposed to be a little filler title for '96 to get something out. They went to a trade show. They saw this amazing demo from Ion Storm, and the game was called "Dominion: Storm," amazing three-dimensional graphics, really smooth animation and game play.
HARLOWAnd they came back from the trade show and said, wow, we just got schooled pretty hard. We need to go back and reinvent this game into something much better. And they did. It turned out to be "StarCraft." What they found out afterwards was that Ion Storm didn't have a game to show. They pre-rented a movie. They had their guys at the trade show fake it...
HARLOW...so one of the best series out there in this category was inspired by something that didn't even exist.
NNAMDII feel an email coming from women gamers, who John Gilroy doesn't know about.
HARLOWAnd Kojo is going to say, fake it till you make it.
NNAMDIAllison, if someone is thinking about buying an Amazon Kindle for a Christmas, Hanukkah or birthday gift, well, apparently, you won't be able to find one at your local big-box store.
DRUINWell, not at Wal-Mart or Target. But you can buy them at Best Buy, Office Depot, Staples, RadioShack, OK? Here is the thing. They decided -- Wal-Mart particularly decided that, you know, we're just showrooming these things. And, you know, people just visit, and then they go and buy these things from Amazon anyway. But, on the other hand, if you take that logic, it doesn't make any sense because they are still selling all their tablets and e-book readers.
DRUINSo they're selling NOOKs, they're selling iPads, you know, Google Nexus tablet, the Samsung Galaxy, but, honestly, I think it's more of a question of why support the guys who are trying to put us out of business kind of thing.
NNAMDIAnd, finally, there's this, an appeal for sanity, if you will, from Maria, who describes herself as a cyber and energy consultant to the national security community. "I love technology and use it all the time, including my iPad and Google Maps safely on it. However, you're missing some of the most important part of this discussion. We went through this when calculators came on. Should we still teach math and exercise the all important mind or just teach kids to use calculators? Does anyone remember digital equipment?"
NNAMDI"Look, technology is an absolute luxury, not a given right. If cyber takes things down -- and it very well could -- you're lost. It's shocking to me that the pizza guys couldn't pull out a map and read it."
GILROYYeah. It is shocking to me, too. What a bunch of...
NNAMDICouldn't pull out a map to read it.
HARLOWDelivery pizza is a luxury, too, Kojo.
NNAMDI"When their Google went down, please, we need to keep our underlying intellectual strengths and skills as a fundamental underpinning of the strength of our society and exercise our minds continually..."
GILROYYeah, Maria, yeah.
NNAMDI"...to think things through, curiosity, how to work through problems. It all starts with individual skills and the basics: reading, writing and math." Thank you so very much for that reminder, Maria.
HARLOWThat was beautiful.
GILROYThat's a good one. Well done. Well done, Maria.
NNAMDIJohn Gilroy is director of business development at Armature Corp. It is always a pleasure.
GILROYHeading over to the unemployment line right now.
NNAMDITo say goodbye to John.
NNAMDIAllison Druin is ADVANCE professor of the STEM Senior Women's Council and co-director of the Future of Information Alliance...
NNAMDI...at the University of Maryland.
DRUINThank you, John.
NNAMDISee you later, Allison.
NNAMDIAnd Bill Harlow...
NNAMDI...is hardware and software technician for Macs and PCs at Mid-Atlantic Consulting, Inc. Thank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.