MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington welcome to "The Kojo Nnamdi Show," connecting your neighborhood with the world. Later in the broadcast living a "normal" life with HIV AIDS, pushing back against stigma on life with a diagnosis of a serious disease. But first the collapsing legal case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the lessons we should and should not take away from a high-profile rape case.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIEarlier today, a Manhattan judge dismissed the sexual assault case against the former head of the International Monetary Fund. This after prosecutors said they could no longer trust the testimony of his accuser. The entire case now seems like a textbook example of how not to prosecute a sex crime with the accused and the alleged victim having both been dragged through the media. But it also serves, once again, to highlight the complex challenges of addressing rape and sexual assault.

MR. KOJO NNAMDIMonths before the DSK saga hit the front pages, documentary film maker Lisa F. Jackson was given behind the scenes access to the Sex Crimes Unit in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. She is a documentary film maker whose most recent film, "Sex Crimes Unit," profiled the work of the Sex Crimes Unit in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. That film premiered earlier this year on HBO.

MR. KOJO NNAMDILisa F. Jackson now joins us by telephone from New York, thank you for joining us.

MS. LISA F. JACKSONThanks, Kojo.

NNAMDIBefore I start to ask you questions about this, I have a long list of things I need to read because as the judge dismissed the case, I'd like to read first from the motion filed by the prosecutors yesterday. "The nature and number of the complainant's falsehoods leave us unable to credit her version of events beyond a reasonable doubt. Whatever the truth may be about the encounter between the complainant and the defendant, if we do not believe her beyond a reasonable doubt, we cannot ask a jury to do so."

NNAMDIThis from Jeffrey Toobin in The New Yorker. "It seems clear in retrospect that the prosecutors rushed to indict Strauss-Kahn when they should have taken more time to investigate the facts with great care. But once that bridge had been crossed, the Vance steam," of course, Cyrus Vance Jr., "the Vance steam did not make the tragic mistake that prosecutors commit all too often. They did not fall in love with their case, so to speak, and thus refused to recognize evidence that did not comport with their theories, rather these prosecutors followed the facts where they led to the detriment of the high-profile case they had just filed.

NNAMDIIn this way they were acting in the best traditions of their profession, better late than never. In all, this story features many more losers than winners, but justice after a fashion seems to have been done."

NNAMDIAnd finally this, Clyde Haberman in The New York Times. "It could be argued that the system, if flawed, worked as it is supposed to. A woman of little social status charged that a man of considerable power had attacked her. Instead of dismissing her out of hand, as might have been the case in other societies, the New York authorities sprang into action. They yanked the man off a plane and hauled him off to jail. When her credibility was then deemed to have as much substance as a soap bubble, the authorities decided they had no choice but to let the suspect go. Do we really want our district attorneys to pursue cases in which they have no faith?"

NNAMDIYou can join this conversation if you have questions or comments about these rapidly-unfolding events today by calling 800-433-8850 or going to our website, kojoshow.org. Our guest is Lisa F. Jackson. She's a documentary film maker as we mentioned earlier. Her most recent film, "Sex Crimes Unit" profiled the work of the Sex Crimes Unit in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office.

NNAMDIThat film premiered earlier this year on HBO. Lisa F. Jackson, today the case is in shambles, the woman, the alleged victim, is in the open, accused of being a liar. Her credibility and her integrity openly questioned by the media. Details of the story coming out still, but you could argue that this is a textbook example of how not to handle a sexual assault case, can't you?

JACKSONWell, you know, you don't really know what went on in the prosecutor's offices, but I don't -- I think it was kind of bungled from the beginning. I mean, as you mentioned, there was not a lot of information that they got about her before they rushed to indict him. And also the decision was made to have two senior prosecutors in the D.A.'s Office, who do not specialize in sex crimes, take the lead on the case. So of the three assistant district attorneys on the case, only one was part of the Sex Crimes Unit and I think that was a mistake also because one of the problems was the disintegration of the relationship between Ms. Diallo and the prosecutors to the point where she felt that she needed to get her own counsel, an outside attorney so, you know, that lack of trust was very mutual.

NNAMDITell us a little bit more about the Sex Crimes Unit because that's what your documentary focused on. Tell us about the history of the office. It was the first such office to be established in the country back in 1974 and you make the point that only one of the attorneys in this case was associated with the unit and that may have been a mistake. Our audience would probably want to know why you say that.

JACKSONWell, if you see the film and you spend any time with these prosecutors you see the very unique bond that exists between the attorneys and the complaining witnesses, the technical term. I saw so many cases go through there where the handholding, the constant phone-calling, the patient, weeks-long preparation for a trial, you know, building up the victim's confidence.

JACKSONYou know, to even bring a charge of rape, to even go to the police in the first place is a hard thing to do. Only 40 percent of rapes in this country are even reported so given those statistics and the fact that so much stigma and it's one of the few crimes as one of the prosecutors says where the victim is perceived to be responsible for what has happened to her. And there are a lot of built-in prejudices in the public, in the jury pool against rape victims before the trial even starts. And this unit, as you said, was the first in the country. It was founded in 1974 and during the time that it's done its work, the laws all over the country have changed dramatically to make it easier for rape victims to come forward.

NNAMDIYou know, very early on the media began to air some questions about how truthful Mr. Strauss-Kahn's accuser had been and I use the term accuser which is a term that is in some dispute. Jackson Katz writing in the Huffington Post today said that anytime you use that term it undermines the credibility of the alleged victim and bolsters the credibility of the alleged perpetrator. You said the term complaining witness seems to be the term most in use in the legal area, correct?

JACKSONYeah, I mean, this is highly sanitized, but yes. The C-W is how they refer to it.

NNAMDIOkay. Well, very early on, the media began to air some questions about how truthful the complaining witness had been. They pointed to examples of her lying on her application for asylum in the United States. You say that's particularly problematic, why?

JACKSONI see there was a very interesting piece in The New Yorker about a month and a half ago where the writer actually profiled the gentleman from Ghana whose job was to create credible, but entirely fictitious back stories for asylum seekers. And in fact, there was an op-ed piece in The Times when the prosecutors first released that piece of information that she had exaggerated claims of, you know, personal violence committed against her, et cetera, and said that it's the exception rather than the rule that people who are applying for asylum tell the whole truth.

JACKSONThat embellishment is something that he sees all the time so that in itself is not so unusual and if they'd been able to put that aside and really see it in the context where that happens constantly, maybe they could have, you know, gone forward. Where she has been completely consistent is in her narrative about what happened and that's what they should have stuck to.

NNAMDIYou know, in the unfolding of the law and prosecutions regarding rape and sexual assault, one of the more controversial areas has been bringing in the past history of the complaining witness if that person happens to have been a prostitute, which was one of the stories covered in your documentary that I think ultimately resulted in a conviction. Is that comparable to what we're talking about here in terms of talking about what she said when she was applying for asylum?

JACKSONWell, you know, in this case, it really is, it's germane to the case. I mean, I don't know legally exactly what is considered protected by the Rape Shield Law. I know that it was initially put into place, the Rape Shield Law, to keep defense attorneys from using a woman's sexual history as a way of further condemning her because, you know, in ancient times, it was presumed that if a woman was, you know, unchaste previously that she was likely to be unchaste again, even, you know, with somebody who attacked her in an alley or came through her bedroom window. I mean, a lot of our laws that have been changed around this crime were rooted, you know, in the 1600s in British common law.

NNAMDIWe're talking with Lisa F. Jackson. She's a documentary film maker. Her most recent film "Sex Crimes Unit" profiled the work of the Sex Crimes Unit in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office and one of the reasons we're talking about that is because earlier today a Manhattan judge dismissed the sexual assault case against the former head of the International Monetary Fund, Dominique Strauss-Kahn. If you have an opinion, a question or a comment about how this case collapsed or was resolved depending on how you look at it, call us at 800-433-8850 or go to our website, kojoshow.org Do you think the prosecution should have proceeded anyway? Do you think it was appropriate to drop the case? 800-433-8850.

NNAMDIWhen we talk about the survivors of sexual assault, Lisa F. Jackson one of the more important ideas, I guess, that you can find in a Sex Crimes Unit emphasized by advocates is empathy and sensitivity to their ordeal. But I guess, at first, it must be ascertained that whatever happened was, in fact, an ordeal.

JACKSONIf it was an ordeal?

NNAMDIYes.

JACKSONUm, well, I mean, that's one of those subjective things. I mean, I think what needs to be ascertained is, was there a crime?

NNAMDIYes.

JACKSONWas there coercion? Was there force? And often it comes down to a he said/she said. In the DSK case, there was some physical evidence. There was trauma to Ms. Diallo's genitals. There was, you know, his DNA had been -- it was everywhere so that there obviously was some form of sexual encounter, but it would be her word against his that it wasn't consensual and, unfortunately, it often comes down to that.

JACKSONThere was a recent case in Manhattan where two New York City cops stood accused of taking advantage of a very drunk young woman and the jury acquitted them of the rape charge because there was no physical evidence and because she was not deemed credible because she was so intoxicated.

NNAMDIA lot of advocates complain of what they call a 'blame the victim bias' in our institutions but also in pop culture. When prosecutors are taking these cases on they have to consider whether a jury will believe a story from a sexual-assault survivor. In your documentary, I mentioned this briefly earlier, you tell you tell the story of how the office decides to take on a sexual assault against a prostitute and how the lawyers, working in this office, strategize about how to present these issues. Can you talk a little bit about that?

JACKSONWell, it was interesting. There was a -- particularly, a scene when they go into jury selection and they realize that the female jurors, the ones that you would think would be more sympathetic in a case like this, were actually the ones that were blaming the victim and then Chief of the unit, Lisa Friel, observed that a lot of women distance themselves as a physiological mechanism where they say, I would never have gotten into that man's car. I would never have worn that outfit. I would never have gotten so drunk.

JACKSONI wouldn't have been in that part of town at that time of night. In other words, the behaviors that the, you know, the victim engaged in that led to her assault are something that the female jurors say, you know, I would never do that. So oddly enough, the jury in that particular case, the majority were men.

NNAMDIA lot of people want to talk to you about this issue so I'm going to take a short break and we'll come right back and continue this conversation about prosecuting sex crimes in the wake today of the legal case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a Manhattan judge dismissed the sexual assault case against the former head of the International Monetary Fund. 800-433-8850 is the number to call. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.

NNAMDIWelcome back. In the wake of a Manhattan judge dismissing sexual assault charges against the former head of the International Monetary Fund today, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, we're talking with Lisa F. Jackson who is a documentary film maker. Her most recent film, "Sex Crimes Unit," profiled the work of the aforementioned sex crimes unit in the Manhattan district attorney's office.

NNAMDIThat film premiered earlier this year on HBO. She joined us by telephone -- joins us by telephone from New York. Onto the phones. Here is Derek in District Heights, Md. Derek, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

DEREKHi, Kojo.

NNAMDIHi, Derek.

DEREKYou know -- Hi. I became concerned when I heard all -- began to hear all the talk about her credibility. I would've liked to have seen this case move forward. I think, it would've been important and significant for her to have her day in court and for him to explain how a man of his wealth and political stature finds himself in a position to have sex with a chamber maid, if it was in fact consensual as he said. I think that -- I think that American justice sort of took a blow on this one.

NNAMDILisa F. Jackson, the sex crimes unit that you portray in your documentary, I get the impression -- usually takes a longer time working with a complainant and witness then happened in this case. It's an innovative office. Some people may be familiar with "Special Victims Unit" on "Law and Order" which is a fictionalized version of how the police and prosecutors work together. But you describe an innovative unit, what makes it different?

JACKSONWell, I mean, there are other units that have -- around the country that are very similar but they just -- I saw, over the course of the year and a half, two years, that I was filming, several cases came in where they checked out, not only the complainant but also the alleged perpetrator. So both stories -- but the individuals on both sides are investigated.

JACKSONI mean, in terms of their uniqueness, I'm not so sure anymore that they are but the attorney's that I met that work there have been there for a minimum, a dozen years, 15 years, 20 years, 25 years. And you spend that many years, you know, prosecuting crimes of sexual violence, you become very sensitized to the victims needs and I saw that over and over again.

NNAMDIOkay, Derek, thank you for your call. Here is Susie on the Beltway in Virginia. Susie, your turn.

SUSIEYes, my question really had to do with, you know, how to separate fact and fiction when you're dealing with someone who is political and the possibility of this being political dirty tricks versus him working -- you know, taking advantage of someone as they put the person in the position of power. And, you know, this case, kind of, bothered me from the get-go as to how to even make that distinction when there was some suggestions that she had been caught on tape talking about making money off the deal. And I can...

JACKSONWell, yeah, there were two different translations of that phone call where she did not initiate the conversation about money as opposed to the, you know, the first translation that the prosecutors released where she would seem to have been the one who had taken the lead on, you know, the idea of a quote-unquote "shake down."

NNAMDIAnd this is a phone call with a friend of hers who was incarcerated by the immigration authorities, correct?

JACKSONCorrect, yeah, in Arizona. And he had initiated the phone call and it was initially incorrectly reported that she had initiated the phone call.

NNAMDISusie, thank you very much for your call. Here now is Suzanne in Washington D.C. Suzanne, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

SUZANNEHi. Can you hear me?

NNAMDIYes, we can.

SUZANNEOkay. First of all, I wanted to say that I am a rape victim and I was actually raped in New York. At the time, they wouldn't even investigate a case if you were in the man's apartment, which was my situation. So I am not unsympathetic to rape victims. This case was different and my daughter works at a high class hotel and from day one she said, this never would happen. That in all the years she's worked at the front desk, no cleaning person has ever walked in unannounced into a hotel room, let alone a messy $1,000 hotel suite.

SUZANNEAnd that cleaning personnel, in big places like that usually go in in groups of two, three and four. So she never credited that this could've possibly happened other than as a voluntary event.

NNAMDISee, one of the problems, Suzanne, is that when you talk to someone who says I work at the front desk in a hotel and they attempt to use that experience to tell you what went on between two people in a private situation, in a private hotel room, it's very difficult for someone, even as experienced as our guest, to be able to respond appropriately to that, but I'll let her try anyway, Lisa F. Jackson.

JACKSONWell, I mean, she apparently knocked -- I mean, she followed the protocol. She knocked and got no answer and that's when she used her key to enter the room. I mean, beyond that, I don't know. The idea of, you know, cleaning in teams, sometimes they do that, sometimes they don't. Apparently they've decided to double up at the Sofitel and also to give maids the -- a panic button in case, you know, something does go awry.

NNAMDIOkay, Suzanne, thank you very much for your call. And, of course, we regret what happened to you, yourself, as a victim of rape. Here is Rick in Arlington, Va. Rick, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

RICKYeah, it's always dangerous to try to criticize what prosecutors or jury's do based on press reports but that's all we have. At least to me, this argument which is being celebrated, that the prosecutors could not believe their credibility beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore they are doing the right thing and dropping charges, that seems to me to be questionable because prosecutors, all the time, introduce testimony of witnesses whose credibility they should not believe beyond a reasonable doubt.

RICKThere are case after case in which somehow some criminal -- accused criminal makes an implausible confession to a cell mate, the cell mate gets a few year off his sentence and testifies to the confession and surely those can't be believed beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore it's hard to believe that the status of the defendant did not play a role.

RICKNow, the role that played may simply be they know that this man, unlike the ordinary criminal, has absolutely top flight lawyers and they may be anticipating that these lawyers would be so affective in cross examination that they lose the case and don't want them to...

NNAMDIWell, you know, I talked to an attorney about that yesterday and Rick, Lisa F. Jackson can tell me if he was incorrect, but the attorney I talked to said, no, no prosecutors office is likely to be intimidated by the power of defense attorneys because they know that in the final analysis, they will still have more resources then the defense team.

JACKSONI have to agree with Kojo on that one. Yeah. And part of the problem, also, is Cy Vance is new in the office and he was really between a hard -- a rock and a hard place. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't on this one and if he had moved forward and had -- and lost, it would've been a terrible blow for him and he probably would've ended up -- end up being, you know, a one term district attorney.

NNAMDIWell, yes...

JACKSON(unintelligible) ...

NNAMDI...he does have a lot of resources at his command that he would not likely be intimidated by a defense team.

JACKSONNo, I absolutely agree with that.

NNAMDIAnd I'm afraid that's about all the time we have. I do like -- would like to mention that on the website for this documentary, you have a personal statement about your own story. I didn't want to bring it up with our previous caller but you too are the survivor of an attack.

JACKSONIndeed, I've written about it. I did a previous film about -- called "The Greatest Silence" about the use of sexual violence and that terrible ongoing war in the Congo. But when I was 25 and living in Washington D.C. in the '70s, I was attacked and abducted in Georgetown and raped by three men and they were never found. And I went back several years later to find out -- you know, I went to the hospital, did the rape kit, gave up a lot of my clothes because my body was a crime scene and the clothes was all evidence.

JACKSONAnd I came back several years later to find out that there was a seven-year statute of limitations on sex crimes in D.C. and that all of my evidence had been destroyed and those three men will never face justice for what they did to me. So statute of limitations are being challenged all over the country. In New York State, we just changed ours, just three years ago, that rape -- that has no statute of limitations and especially now with the use of DNA to track down perpetrators.

JACKSONSo, you know, I do have great sympathy for women who do come forward and, you know, the ordeal of the trial is an ordeal. And I really wish that this Diallo case, the DSK case, had gone -- had, first of all, had not been tried in the court of public opinion to the extent that it has been but had, you know, followed the course that it initially seemed to be on. I...

NNAMDIWell, it's not over, the complaining witness has filed a civil lawsuit so I know we have not yet heard the end of this. Unfortunately we've come to the end of our time for this segment. Lisa F. Jackson, thank you so much for joining us.

JACKSONKojo, it was a pleasure, thank you for having me.

NNAMDILisa F. Jackson is a documentary film maker. Her most recent film "Sex Crimes Unit" profiled the work of the sex crimes unit in the Manhattan district attorney's office. It premiered earlier this year on HBO. We're going to take a short break, when we come back, living a quote-unquote "normal life" with HIV/AIDS, pushing back against stigma on life with a diagnosis of serious disease. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.