MR. KOJO NNAMDIFrom WAMU 88.5 at American University in Washington, welcome to "The Politics Hour," starring Tom Sherwood. I'm Kojo Nnamdi. Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's an NBC 4 reporter and a columnist for the Current Newspapers, which gives him the right to start talking about whatever the heck it is he wants to start talking about today.

MR. TOM SHERWOODTiger Woods not going to play in the U.S. Open this weekend.

NNAMDITom Boswell in The Washington Post seems to think that is an intelligent and rational decision.

SHERWOODIt may be, but my fear is, I wanted him to come back. As badly as he behaved, I wanted him to come back and at least show a little flash of the greatness he did, because he was terrific to watch. I'm afraid he's never coming back.

NNAMDIHe may be able to show, according to Thomas Boswell in The Washington Post, that flash in the future, but it has to be a long-term process.

SHERWOODHe's -- yeah, but he's already 35. He's almost at least, you know, he's getting up your age.

NNAMDIThis is golf. This is not basketball we're talking about. He may play well till he's...

SHERWOODYou know, the senior tour starts at 50.

NNAMDIHe's got 15 years to play golf.

SHERWOODNot when he's hobbling around on -- like some lame mare out in the field.

NNAMDIAnd one year to rehabilitate himself, how do you...

SHERWOODAnd it's this weekend, you know, it's -- I mean, whenever, it's next weekend or -- in the (unintelligible).

NNAMDIHow about weather? You wanted to talk about weather, do you?

SHERWOODWell, you know, it's pretty important that people are sweating all over the place. I've managed to stay -- I've had an assignment every day this week that's in an air-conditioned room, and it could be a little cooler in the studio, if I could just point that out.

NNAMDIWell, the fact that you spend so much time drinking whatever it is you drink...

SHERWOODWhite wine.

NNAMDI...in Florida all the time is an indication that heat doesn't bother you at all.

SHERWOODI like hot, spicy foods. But can't we get on to the news? We've got a lot to talk about.

NNAMDII thought you wanted to talk about this other stuff. OK, let's...

SHERWOODThis is all good stuff.

NNAMDILet's get on to the news.

SHERWOODDancing -- Eleanor Holmes Norton dancing -- she wants to make July 30th -- it happens to be my birthday, if anyone is listening -- she wants that to be the national dance day on the mall.

NNAMDIJuly 30th is your birthday?

SHERWOODThat's correct, and I might dance on that day.

NNAMDIWe'll make sure that we do not observe it here. Apparently...

SHERWOODI'll be on vacation yet again.

NNAMDIApparently determined to take a dim view of the proceedings, former mayoral candidate Sulaimon Brown simply refused to take off his sunglasses on Monday as he testified at a city council hearing, despite the objections of the chairperson of the council committee, Mary Cheh, Councilmember Yvette Alexander and others. But it was his combative behavior that reminded us of a song.

MS. YVETTE ALEXANDERI will not ask you questions with those sunglasses.

MR. SULAIMON BROWNI was paid, promised a job, not an interview.

MS. MARY CHEHLet me interrupt you. So you when you met her...

BROWNNo, don't interrupt me. I want to finish my -- I know...

CHEHNo, when you met her, I want to get this exactly right because...

BROWNWell, if you want to get it exactly right, you'd want to listen the answers.

CHEH...your details matter.

BROWNYou want me to testify, or you're going to testify for me?

ALEXANDERI will not ask you questions with those sunglasses.

BROWNI'm not going to remove them. You are a witness in this case, and I think it's inappropriate for you to be asking me questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE #1Mr. Brown...

BROWNFrom -- no. I'm going to put on the record...

#1Mr. Brown, your delusions...

BROWN...because you are a witness in this case.

#1...Mr. Brown, your delusions are limitless.

BROWNNo. You threatened the confirmation hearing.

CHEHSir, sir...

BROWNYou threatened the confirmation hearing of director Wayne Turnage.

CHEHSir...

#1Your fantasies really need to be checked so we can get some answers. You're undermining your credibility or any usefulness you have in this committee.

ALEXANDERI will not ask you questions with those sunglasses.

BROWNYou want me to testify, or you're going to testify for me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE #2You know, I have never been in a hearing like this before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE #2It's so serious.

BROWNYou got to be kidding.

#2Are you out of your mind?

BROWNYou got locked up by the same FBI I'm talking to.

NNAMDIOf course, that's the song "Sunglasses at Night" by Corey Hart, who once reminded us, don't push the blade on the guy in shades. You just heard the voices of Sulaimon Brown, Mary Cheh, Yvette Alexander, David Catania and Marion Barry. "Politics Hour" producer and very amateur DJ Michael Martinez proudly calls our first ever mash-up mix tape Sulaimonia, the remix.

SHERWOODThat was good.

NNAMDIBut, Tom Sherwood, despite that circus-like atmosphere, Sulaimon Brown's testimony left little doubt that he did receive money from people who were connected to Howard Brooks, the so-called mystery man in the Gray campaign. And Sulaimon Brown, after all, did get a job. The only questions now are, what did Mayor Vincent Gray know, and will the U.S. attorney find that crimes were committed here?

SHERWOODThose are the good summaries of that, and it was something B-grade off-Broadway melodrama-type thing on Monday, but the fact remains that as crazy, as wild as you want to make Sulaimon Brown seem or sound between all of his allegations and nothing happening, something happened. And we don't know what it is. I think Muriel Bowser said it best. She said we don't know the details, but people just feel instinctively in their guts that something happened.

SHERWOODWhat was it? Mayor Gray, I mean, I asked Mary Cheh if she would call Mayor Gray to testify, invite him, not to subpoena him, because that would be a separation of powers kind of issue. But why don't you invite the mayor down and let him detail under oath what he did. If he's innocent -- and I would have done it two months ago if I were him. But he -- we need to clear this up. It's just hanging over his administration, and it's not good.

NNAMDIThe mayor keeps calling the charges preposterous. But speaking of hanging over his administration, there were a number of articles and references and tweets and blogs this week to the effect that a lot of people who have, like you've been covering the city for a long time, have never seen this number of instances of apparent malfeasance taking place all at one time involving several city councilmembers and the mayor.

SHERWOODRight. We've had our ups and downs. You know, I want to point out we're not some kind of isolated space cadet government floating around in space.

NNAMDIChicago, New Orleans, (unintelligible). (laugh)

SHERWOODYou know, I'd like to point out, you know, Illinois had three former governors go to prison in the last 30 years. Louisiana, I think, you have to pay to get in. Maryland, Marvin Mandel went to prison. No one discussed whether the people of Maryland had lost their minds.

NNAMDIThank you.

SHERWOODJack Johnson, no one is trying to isolate Prince George's County and slide it into the Chesapeake.

NNAMDIThank you.

SHERWOODSo there's all kinds of things happening all over the place, but this is a bad time. I wrote a column this week that if there's an ability for a city to hang its head, this is a good time, because we just have all these things happening all at once. And it is the people who have to get riled up about it.

NNAMDIAnd as one of the people who've been covering the city for a long time, you are as authoritative as anyone else as to the extent to which this will tarnish the image of the city. But we do have to move on. A lawsuit was filed on Monday that accuses D.C. City Council Ward 5 Councilmember Harry Thomas Jr. of diverting hundreds of thousands of dollars in funds that were supposed to go to a youth baseball program to personal expenses that run the gamut from a luxury car to trips to Las Vegas.

NNAMDISitting in the studio with us is the individual who filed that suit on behalf of the city. Irvin Nathan is attorney general for the District of Columbia. Irvin Nathan, thank you so much for joining us.

ATTY. GEN. IRVIN NATHANThank you for asking me. I'm delighted to be here.

SHERWOODHis first substantial interview beyond his press conference on Monday.

NNAMDIThat's right. He's opening up to the public, and he has chosen the appropriate place to open up, he boasted cleverly. You said that the behavior of Councilmember Harry Thomas was, quoting here, "willful, intentional and knowing." Can you walk us through some of the evidence that leads you to believe that?

NATHANI will walk through the evidence. Obviously, we have filed a 27-page complaint in the superior court. We obviously have obligations of good faith to file the complaint, and we're going to have to prove it by a preponderance of the evidence when we get to trial. And, of course, Mr. Thomas will have his day in court too to refute the allegations.

SHERWOODHe has like until like 15 days to file his first response, is that correct?

NATHANYes. He has 20 days to file an answer. Often there are extensions of time, and we'll grant him all the time that he wants. I would say that as we were doing the investigation and drafting the complaint, we called on Mr. Thomas through his counsel, Fred Cooke, repeatedly to explain the circumstances, and he declined repeatedly to come in and explain, to provide documentation to support what expenditures have been made by this charitable organization, Team Thomas, or the diversion of the funds.

NATHANAnd as recently as a week before we filed the complaint, we gave to Mr. Cooke the guts of the complaint, the factual allegations. We asked him if there's anything wrong with that, to tell us because we wanted to be accurate, and we got no answers as to any inaccuracies in the complaint.

NNAMDIBy the way, if you'd like to join this conversation, if you have questions or comments, you can call us at 800-433-8850. Mr. Attorney General, go ahead please.

NATHANWell, you know, I wanted to comment before I get to the essence of the allegations. On the statements that you guys were making about the dark days, I think that Mayor Gray deserves a tremendous amount of credit for bringing this matter to the fore. You have to understand that these allegations against Mr. Thomas relate to a period in 2007 and 2008. They are not current events.

NATHANWhat is the current event is that Mayor Gray has appointed an attorney general, given him complete independence to pursue investigations that our office thinks is warranted. When we completed our investigation, or mostly completed it, I discussed it with the mayor, and he was completely encouraging of us to proceed. He did nothing to delay or defer or to modify the investigation.

NATHANAnd so when we bring these out, this is a good thing in terms of bringing out problems that existed before, existed three and four years ago, and so I think that the mayor deserves commendation for that.

SHERWOODOn that very point, I was going to ask my first question. Some people thought -- in fact, Tommy Thomas had said privately...

NNAMDITommy Thomas...

SHERWOODI'm sorry, Harry.

NNAMDI...for those of you who are not aware of it, it is how Harry...

SHERWOODHarry "Tommy" Thomas.

NNAMDI...Thomas Jr. is referred to by people who know him.

SHERWOODThank you very much. Thought that with the changing of the attorney general -- Peter Nickles started this, and you completed it. But there was some feeling that Tommy Thomas was tight with Vince Gray, and that you were not going to be as aggressive. You certainly aren't as loud as Peter Nickles. But that you are somehow this might kind of softly drift away. In fact, you came out both shotguns, I mean, blazing. How much of the work had been done by Peter Nickels when you took it over, and it just had to be completed, or did you do more?

NATHANNo. When I arrived, there was a fair -- in a fairly desultory state of this investigation, the investigation at the time I arrived was exclusively focused on Team Thomas, the charitable organization. The question was, were they soliciting without a license, which the answer is yes. What were they representing to the people who contributed, and how were they spending the funds in Team Thomas?

NATHANAfter I arrived and we looked at the situation, we knew that from representations by Mr. Thomas and his counsel that there was approximately $200,000 in this charitable organization of Team Thomas, and we could not find who had contributed so much. And at one point, Mr. Cooke, Fred Cooke, who's a very able lawyer, who represents Mr. Thomas, said that Mr. Thomas said that most of the money in Team Thomas was his personal funds.

NATHANAnd so the question was, where did he get these personal funds, and when did he contribute them? And that's when we pursued the matter and discovered the earmark -- an earmark in 2007 for the 2008 fiscal year of $400,000 which was to go for youth baseball. And when we tracked that down, we found that Mr. Thomas had told the Youth and Children Investment...

NNAMDIChildren and Youth Investment Trust Corporation.

NATHAN...and Trust Corporation, which is a nonprofit, private organization. Its membership is appointed -- the board is appointed by the mayor and the city council. Thomas told them to transfer the funds, the $400,000, to the Langston 21 Foundation, which is a foundation dealing with golf at the Langston Golf Course. It's not dealing with youth baseball. And when we traced that and we saw the funds went there, the way it worked was that the corporation, the trust corporation, provided checks to the principals of Langston 21, who in turn were instructed by Mr. Thomas to write checks to his profit-making company, HLT Swingaway/Thomas and Team Thomas.

NATHANSo the first check, which was for $100,000 to Langston, was put in Langston's bank account, but then the Langston officials wrote checks, $60,000 to the for-profit Thomas corporation, 15,000 to Team Thomas and Langston kept the rest.

SHERWOODDid you find that Tommy Thomas, the councilmember himself, was directing these funds or was someone acting on his behalf? Or was it, in fact, him spending this time? We've talked -- this is the painful part of it. I had known -- I've known him for some time. He talks about helping young people through sports, and to see that this money in this fashion, unless he presents a different case, is really terrible. But did he personally do this? Did he pick up the phone and tell people this? Or did he have his staff do it?

NATHANWell, it's a combination. The staff told the trust corporation to make the check payable to Langston and to deliver it to Jimmy Garvin. But Mr. Garvin and Mr. Banks, who are the principals of Langston 21, said they met with Mr. Thomas. He gave them the directions on...

SHERWOODOK. That's the key point.

NATHAN...how the checks would be written. And, of course, the checks were made out to his profit corporation and his nonprofit. And he endorsed those checks, and he deposited those checks. And then the most dramatic thing we see in the documentation is that a few days after the $60,000 is provided to the for-profit corporation, which, by the way, up to that point had a negative balance in its bank account, now it had $60,000.

NATHANTwo days later, a cashier's check is taken from that account for $58,000 and delivered personally by Mr. Thomas to Tischer Audi for a deluxe SUV that was purchased. And when the check plus the old car that Mr. Thomas had, plus other credits that he received, proved to be about $1,000 short of the total amount, he used the debit card of the charitable entity, Team Thomas, which had just had an infusion of $15,000 from Langston to pay the remainder and drive off the lot.

NATHANSeveral months later, that car was titled in the name of his profit corporation, and then thereafter, it was titled in Mr. Thomas' name, where it is currently titled. And I noticed he drove that SUV to his recent press conference, denying any improprieties and saying that he bought this with his own funds.

NNAMDII wanna back up for one second because these funds were channeled, as you pointed out, through the Children and Youth Investment Trust Corporation for the purpose of baseball. Should it not have raised eyebrows when the funds were channeled to Langston 21, because everybody knows that Langston is a golf course?

NNAMDIAnd even Alan Suderman, loose lips says that LL is no Tiger Woods, but he's sure -- pretty sure golf and baseball are different sports. Shouldn't it have raised some eyebrows when these funds were channeled to Langston 21?

NATHANAbsolutely, it should have. Although, to be fair, that in the application, the folks from Mr. Thomas' office said that these were gonna be for swing sports, which would include golf and baseball and softball.

SHERWOODBut Tommy is a big, I mean, the councilmember plays golf. Now, isn't one of the allegations that he took some personal trip to Pebble Beach in California?

NATHANYes. The trips to...

SHERWOODOn the city money.

NATHANWell, yes. You know, it's hard to know exactly how -- money is fungible. The trips were paid for through Team Thomas. Team Thomas did have about $80,000 of contributions from private organizations, private organizations who, we believe, were led to believe that, first of all, this was a 501 (c)(3), a tax-exempt organization, which it was not, which they were led to believe that the organization had a license to solicit from the District, which it did not.

NATHANAnd, of course, most importantly, they were told that this was gonna go for youth baseball. And when the money was there, the 80,000 from private donors and the 108,000 that came from District grants, there were trips to Pebble Beach, to golf courses in Las Vegas and elsewhere, and they were paid for by Team Thomas. We don't believe that that served youth baseball in the District (unintelligible).

NNAMDIIn case you're just joining us, it's the Politics Hour, where Tom Sherwood is out resident analyst. He's an NBC 4 reporter and a columnist for The Current Newspapers. Our guest is Irvin Nathan, attorney general for the District of Columbia, currently discussing the lawsuit filed against D.C. City Councilmember Harry Thomas, Jr.

NNAMDIIf you have questions or comments about this or anything else, Tom Sherwood, of course, knows all. 800-433-8850 is the number to call. 800-433-8850. Or send us an email to kojo@wamu.org or go to our website, kojoshow.org. Ask your question there.

SHERWOODAnd before we take any calls in, I do want -- just to summarize, I do know all, meaning, I know what questions to ask, if not all the answers. It looks to me -- you filed a civil complaint.

NATHANCorrect.

SHERWOODBased on what you just told us about the expenditure of funds and donations to people -- what people thought were tax-exempt organizations, there may be IRS implications for people who gave money and people who received money, people who spent money. And then you also made a referral to the U.S. Attorney's Office for potential criminal investigation, probably the most sensitive thing you could talk about here, if at all. What is it that made you make the referral to the U.S. attorney for potential criminal violation?

NATHANWell, when we were looking at it solely as potential violations of D.C. solicitation laws and even misrepresentations about the organization, that didn't seem to raise criminal problems or federal criminal problems. But when we talk about diverting over $300,000 of District grant funds for personal use of a public official, that implicates a host of criminal statutes, both in the D.C. code and in the federal criminal code.

NATHANAnd so, because of that diversion of such a large amount of money from the purposes that the council had enacted, we thought that the U.S. Attorney's Office should examine this matter and determine whether there are criminal violations. Let me say that as a result of a ruling by the D.C. Court of Appeals a couple of years ago, the court decided that our office does not have criminal jurisdiction, for example, against false claims against the District, where claims are made and funds are paid and the claims are false.

NATHANWe think that's a mistake and that Congress has to change it. We would have to go to Congress. The court was interpreting congressional intention. We intend to go there. I've already had some discussion with the chairman of the subcommittee that reviews District matters, who is himself a former local prosecutor. He understands why local jurisdictions need to have criminal jurisdiction to deal with such matters, and I intend to pursue that to see if we can get restored our ability to prosecute matters that are really focused on local (word?).

SHERWOODYou're saying that you would prosecute Mr. Thomas criminally if you had that authority?

NATHANWell, I'm not saying that, because I'm not gonna go into hypotheticals. I've referred it to Mr. Machen, who is the one -- the U.S. attorney in D.C. who has the jurisdiction. He's got to make the call, and I'm not gonna second guess what call he makes. But I do believe that our office should have criminal jurisdiction on such matters, and I'm gonna actively pursue our getting that. It's a part of home rule and autonomy for the District.

NNAMDIAllow me to go to the telephones. Gentlemen, please don your headsets. We're going to speak with Tammy in Washington, D.C. Tammy, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MS. TAMMY SELTZEROh, thank you so much, Kojo. Irv, this is Tammy Seltzer (sp?). It's (word?) to hear you on the air.

NATHANHi, Tammy. How are you? Good to talk to you again.

NNAMDIYou're getting calls from friends on this broadcast? (laugh) Go ahead, Tammy.

SELTZERWell, I actually know Irv Nathan from the good works he's done with the Abramson Foundation. But I've lived on the city for 25 years, and I've just gotten so tired of hearing these kinds of stories of corruption, especially for, you know, the kind of corruption that takes programs away from children who really need them. And I'm thrilled that Irv Nathan is pursuing this case, and then hopefully pursuing other cases like this, where people are taking advantage of both city residents' fund, but particularly the people who are supposed to be the beneficiaries of those funds.

NNAMDITammy, thank you very much for your call. As proof that there is not unanimity of opinion on this issue, let's go to Kate in Washington...

NATHANWell, let me -- can I respond to Tammy for just one second?

NNAMDIPlease respond. I'll put Kate on hold while you respond.

SHERWOODYou can't respond to compliments. (laugh)

NNAMDIGo ahead.

NATHANFirst of all, I wanna thank her but also make it clear that our lawsuit is to recover these funds, and we are operating under the False Claims Act on the civil side, which provides for treble damages. So if we go to court, we would be eligible to get $1 million...

NNAMDIYou're asking for a million bucks.

NATHAN...the 316 trebled plus fines and other expenses that we're entitled to, and we will pursue it vigorously to get that money back for the District.

NNAMDIAnd you should know, of course, that we will be inviting Harry Thomas, Jr. to appear on the Politics Hour when he's ready. Obviously, that's at some point in the future. But here, right now, is Kate in Washington, D.C. Kate, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

KATEHi, Kojo. Mr. Nathan, let me just say this to you with all due respect -- and I understand a little bit about how the District works in terms of its politics. But the idea of going on "Kojo Show" with Tom Sherwood, with all three of you sitting there, and having a wonderful trial prior to anything being done in terms of a court of law at the point of having this out in a court of law, I find unconscionable. I -- this is not about Harry Thomas.

KATEThis is not about whether he did it or didn't do it. I mean, who knows? You know, I won't say who cares, because we all do. But the idea of having a radio show where you have the advantage, home advantage of sitting there and bringing forth all of the information...

NNAMDIKate, allow me to interrupt. There is nothing...

KATENo, let me finish. Let me finish.

NNAMDIThere is nothing that Irvin Nathan has said that is not already public information. In the 27 pages of that civil suit that was filed, you will find every single thing that Irvin Nathan has already said here today. There seems to be a notion that if there is a trial that's taking place, everybody is supposed to clam up and say, no, we can't say anything until the trial occurs. That's not the law. But, Kate, your turn again.

KATEI just wanted to simply say -- I understand that. First of all, I understand that and I understand how this works. But I will say that by the time Harry Thomas -- were I sitting in this, by the time Harry Thomas gets around or maybe his attorney might say that he should clam up. Who knows? We don't know that. But the bottom line is it just seems a bit unfair to have a whole show dedicated to let's just lay our case out in the media and play out the...

NNAMDIAllow me to have Irvin Nathan respond, because he's not the whole show. We'll be having Isiah Leggett on later in this broadcast. But here is Irvin Nathan.

NATHANThank you. Well, I understand the point of view. I don't share it. This is a matter of considerable public importance. We're operating under rules of transparency and open government. The D.C. Bar rules specifically say that in a case of public importance, particularly a civil case, that it is perfectly appropriate to lay out what the contentions are. As I mentioned at the outset, there will be a trial. Mr. Thomas will have his day in court and be able to refute the allegations.

NATHANHe has already had a press conference in which he has said that these charges are not valid. As I mentioned at the outset, we have repeatedly asked him to prove to us, to show us documentation that he didn't take these funds and he didn't misuse them and not use them for the youth baseball. As you heard Kojo say, he's gonna be on this program or...

NNAMDIWe've invited him to be in this broadcast. We will be inviting him.

MR. ISIAH LEGGETT...he's been invited to be on the program, so he has an opportunity. We're a long way from the trial. We -- this is not an imminent matter. He gets to file an answer. There will be discovery taken in the litigation. It will go on for a while. When we take discovery, we will look for additional information.

SHERWOODAnd this is a reporter, I wanna say, you know? We do not operate under rules of courts in terms of criminal cases and in civil cases. The media is interested in this. Politicians are interested in this. People who work for the city -- in this.

SHERWOODAnd I dare say that the youth organizations and the family members of the people, of the kids who didn't get to go play at Pebble Beach, who don't get to ride in the Audi, who don't get to do all the things that Mr. Thomas has done with our city money -- and he's not disputing that he has done those things. The question is whether it was proper or not. So as reporters, we're gonna pursue the story. And you're right to make sure that Harry Thomas gets his chance to talk. And we'll have him here. And we'll talk to him a lot.

SHERWOODI've talked to him a lot. It's very disturbing what's happened in the city with this and other cases I'm about to get to. And people have a right in the political system, not the criminal justice system, but in the political system to raise concerns about it. Thanks for calling though, Kate.

NNAMDIWhat are the -- Kate -- Tom, what are the other cases you're about to get to? We have Isiah Leggett...

NATHANNo, but let me make -- can I make...

SHERWOODI know. I know.

NATHANCan I make one more point?

NNAMDIPlease do.

NATHANI am an officer of the court and I am bound by the ethical rules, which I have examined and believe that we are well within those rules when we're dealing with a matter of public importance and when we have official office to explain to the public what the allegations are. These are very serious charges. They're against a public official.

NATHANAnd I think that we have the right -- the journalists, obviously, have the right to ask about it. We have the right to respond. And, of course, Mr. Thomas has every right to explain his conduct and defend his conduct.

SHERWOODAnd Fred Cooke, the lawyer for Mr. Thomas, told us -- at the council building on Tuesday that this may well taken to next year before this is resolved in the court. The people of the city do not have to wait to start making judgments about it. But can I go on to another before we get to...

NNAMDIVery briefly, yes.

SHERWOODVery briefly. The Washington Post an extraordinary editorial on Sunday in The Washington Post, lead editorial about Michael Brown's representation of a law firm with interest in gambling, substantial practice in gambling, even as the council late last year passed, without public hearing, a legislation to provide Internet gambling in the District of Columbia. The Post appealed that authorities look into it. Is that something on your radar screen?

NATHANNo, it's really not on our radar screen. I read the article. And it seemed a little stretched. It is true that he was working with a law firm, which was not directly involved in this legislation. The contention was that it's involved in gambling in other jurisdictions and the fact that the District passed it might at some time in the future were down to the benefit of that firm with which he is no longer employed.

LEGGETTWe are looking at the legislation as it was passed to be sure that it is implemented in a completely lawful fashion. And, of course, it is intended as a revenue producer for the District. And it was passed by a full council, not simply by one member who introduced it.

SHERWOODAnd very quickly in the taxi cab matters -- I'm not gonna ask about Jim Graham. I think that's been fairly clear. But there's...

NNAMDIHow about Joe (unintelligible) ?

SHERWOODThere is a new movement in the council to change the taxi cab system to provide for medallions. That was the whole thing about this previous group trying to take over the cab industry. Does that raise concerns to you at all that the taxi cab industry is watching by the attorney general's office?

NATHANWell, again, this is a policy decision by the council. And they should hold hearings and decide what they think is the best way to proceed. And they should obviously consider the potential for corruption matters if they decide a certain way. We won't pass on which way they should go. That's for them to decide. If they do pass legislation, we will, again, be sure that it is carried in a perfectly lawful way. And if there are -- if there is misconduct, that's the point in which we would get involved.

NNAMDIIrvin Nathan is attorney general for the District of Columbia. This is his first appearance on the broadcast, generally known as the kid gloves segment.

NATHANI'm glad to hear that. Thank you very much for that.

NNAMDIWhen you come back on the next occasion, we will be much harder, especially if you have been advised to appear on any other broadcast...

NATHANOK. Thank you for the warning.

NNAMDI...affecting politics in the city. Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst. He's an NBC 4 reporter and a columnist for The Current Newspapers. Tom Sherwood, as we await the arrival of Isiah Leggett into the studio, a couple of other issues that I would like to ask you about.

NNAMDICouncilmember Jim Graham of Ward 1, having been offered and rejected $2,600 that came out during this week's sentencing hearing in U.S. District Court of Ted Loza, Mr. Graham's former chief of staff, and he did not accept the money. But questions have been raised about why he didn't report that he was offered money in the first place.

SHERWOODWell, I talked to Jim Graham yesterday for a story on Channel 4. And there were three separate times that he was offered trips and then this cash money, which you just referred to. And when he felt like it was -- he did not feel appropriate to take the trips or this cash. In fact, he said the cash felt radioactive in his hands. And so, people have said, well, if you thought that way, why didn't you report it to authorities that this was an attempted bribe?

SHERWOODHe says, well, it came -- the money itself came from his chief of staff, who he says, he didn't know that his chief of staff was a crook, you know, helping out with this. And so, he said I didn't think it was appropriate. The money could have -- wasn't, just said, here's a bribe for helping the legislation. The money was presented as a thanks for being, paying attention. It could have been a constituent's service fund contribution.

SHERWOODIt could have been an inappropriate gift of campaign cash in a government office. Whatever that, he just rejected and said, this is not right, I don't want it. And he says, maybe I should have done more. But what he says is, the three times the FBI orchestrated in an attempt to ensnare him to see if he was part of this very tough probe, he said he did the right thing. He did not bite.

NNAMDIAnd you are giving Jim Graham's responses to your questions. You have not officially appointed yourself to be his (unintelligible).

SHERWOODI'm just -- yeah, I interview -- I said at the start of that -- I interviewed Jim Graham yesterday. It's still fresh in my mind...

NNAMDIOh my (word?).

SHERWOOD...which is an ongoing investigation. This taxi cab thing is tough. It's all over the country. People are trying to corner the market on the cab industry and to get these medallions, which are -- can be incredibly valuable if you're a taxi cab driver in New York or other places. So it's got to be watched very carefully.

NNAMDIWe move on now to Montgomery County, where as far as we know, no leading elected officials are under investigation, so we have to raise the question of why we're even discussing Montgomery County in the first place. Joining us in studio is Isiah or Ike Leggett. He's the county executive of Montgomery County, Md. He is a Democrat. Ike Leggett, good to see you again.

LEGGETTGood to see you. What an introduction, Kojo.

SHERWOODWell, you know, I got four questions about your being here. They're all from four older men who wanted to know what's the status of the Viagra thing and are you all gonna have it in the insurance or not.

NNAMDIFor those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with that issue, it has to do with the budget in Montgomery County and that included in that budget is Viagra for county employees and that there are some people who are objecting to that. Ike Leggett, what say you?

LEGGETTWell, I objected to it. In fact, I eliminated it from the budget recommendation that I submitted...

NNAMDISure did.

LEGGETT...to the council. The council had a disagreement about it and decided to reinstate it, but they limited it and therefore, reduced some of the increase cost for the drug. I just thought that given the budgetary constraints that we are working on today, that it was simply not appropriate for the tax payers to be paying it. So I recommended that we not do so, but the council decided otherwise.

NNAMDIIndeed, the council preserved those drug benefits for public workers that will cover erectile dysfunction. You've put a lot of blood and sweat for the Democrats both in Montgomery County and throughout the state. You chaired the state's Democratic party, after all. But this year, you've had to fend off a lot of the same accusations that Republican governors like Scott Walker have been charged with that you, Isiah Leggett, are mounting an assault on public employees.

LEGGETTWell, let's look at that. I think that assault comes from a very narrow group of people, not, in fact, all the union leaders of the county.

NNAMDIWe have one on this very show.

LEGGETTThat's right. But overall, the citizens of Montgomery County, the residents therein have welcomed with open arms the efforts that we've taken because I think they recognize that we have to change, and we have to change in a way that is not just for today, but for the future as well. We're looking at structure changes. So overwhelmingly, I think I received a great deal of support for the efforts that I was making.

NNAMDIWhat do you mean when you say we have to change in the long run? Because it suggests to me, or I certainly infer from it, that we're going to have to change how we look at public employees. And in the case of Montgomery County, there are three categories of public employees who seem to be under scrutiny, and that is public employees generally, public employees in education and public employees in public safety, in particular.

LEGGETTWell, let's look at the county's budget overall and what we spend. Eighty percent of what we spend, county, goes to some form or fashion to employees, either in benefits or wages. So there's no way that you can actually structure budget either short term or long term without having some meaningful impact on county employees. You simply cannot get around that. Whether it's reduction in services or programs, it is very, very difficult to do that without having some impact on county employees.

LEGGETTNow, taken my -- and I accept this, our county employees have done a tremendous job. We have not provided a step increases or wages. We furloughed employees last year. We reduced pretty close to 13,000 positions now. So they've done more with less. And I really applaud the efforts of our employees. But overall, when you look at where this county is going, and I've said this for a number of years, right here on this show, that we had to make these changes.

LEGGETTWe simply are at a point now that, I think, looking at what we are faced with today and looking at the challenges for tomorrow, i.e. health care, pensions, the county simply must make a turn. And I think we made a turn for the better.

SHERWOODAnd you have the image of the wealthy Montgomery County, but you have a growing social service need in your county. You have a lot more issues than people immediately assigned to Montgomery County. But again, 80 percent of the budget is salary and benefits.

LEGGETTYes.

SHERWOODThat's remarkable.

LEGGETTThat includes...

SHERWOODSchools and everything.

LEGGETT...school system as well.

NNAMDIThe legal war over these budget issues is not always the easiest thing to follow. There was another court ruling this week about the collective bargaining rights of unions in the county. What happened?

LEGGETTWell, the bottom line is that we prevailed. As you may recall, the union official that indicated that the position that I've taken was not a legal one, that it was unlawful. I've maintained a very clear position that I did not believer that our county charter, i.e. our Constitution, requires the county executive to, in effect, place in to the recommended budget the decision of the legal arbitrator. I thought that that was not the appropriate way to interpret the charter. The courts actually agree. Unfortunately...

SHERWOODThat's the problem when you got a lawyer as county executive.

LEGGETTUnfortunately, we had some early arbitrated decision that indicated otherwise. And I indicated very clearly in this process that if need be, that I would challenge this matter in court, which I did. And we prevailed on the issue, at least up to now, and the unions have decided that they want to appeal. But keep in mind the following, i.e. that if they were dissatisfied with my budget recommendation, the county council has the final authority to look at this de novo.

LEGGETTThey can decide whether I was right or wrong. They can decide on behalf of the unions. They decided ultimately not to follow the arbitrator decision as well.

NNAMDITom.

SHERWOODWell, you know...

NNAMDIOh, we have a caller.

SHERWOOD...take the call. But you know, it's like 46 states now are having to write on their budget goal line now to start the next year. And it seems like 46 of them are in trouble. Counties all across the country are all in trouble. You're hearing that, aren't you, from...

LEGGETTOh, yes. We're hearing that overall, but let's keep in mind what we've done in Montgomery County. And this is a comparison, I think, we need to go back and look at. As compared to what you've seen in the Midwest and some of the governors who've taken positions, we've taken positions here in Montgomery County that we've done both. We've cut, reduced services and programs. We reduced cost overall. But we've also provided additional revenue.

SHERWOODWhat's the key revenue things you've done, just like check them off?

LEGGETTJust for example, we increased -- I think three years ago, we exceeded the charter limit on property taxes. Just last year, I increased the cellular telephone tax, the fuel energy tax. That was $150 million that's currently in this budget as result of taxes. In addition to that, you may also recall that I pushed very hard to have ambulance fee in Montgomery County that was ultimately rejected.

LEGGETTSo when you make these comparisons about what people are doing in the Midwest, keep in mind the very strong, overwhelmingly Democratic community in Montgomery County have pushed for both tax increases, which we have, and I've placed in the budget, as well as reductions. And I think that's the sort of balanced approach that we have. You won't find those governors and people that you made reference to doing that -- that we've done here in Montgomery County.

NNAMDIWell, we're gonna move away from budget as a result of this telephone call, because another political boogeyman is back in the news in the Washington region, Pepco. Here's Diana in Montgomery County. Diana, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

MS. DIANA CONWAYHi, Kojo. Thank you very much. This is Diana Conway, I'm president of Montgomery Countryside Alliance. Hello, Ike. And I'm calling because yesterday, there was a significant amount of upset in the agricultural reserve, that 93,000-acre beautiful farm area around Sugarloaf Mountain in upper Montgomery County.

MS. DIANA CONWAYAnd Pepco was going through on designated rural and rustic roads called Budd Road and West Willard Road, apparently without property owner permission, and cutting down 200-year-old trees that were across the street from power lines or very far back from power lines. And when they were confronted, they were told -- they responded that, well, the trees were pretty old and mature, so they might die and fall across the road onto the power lines in the next four or five years before the crews got back out there, and that's why they were cutting them down.

MS. DIANA CONWAYSo, Ike, I hope you're gonna take a strong position in defense of the rural and rustic roads, which define the character of those neighborhoods in those areas up there and make it such a welcoming and green place, and get Pepco to be a little bit more reasonable about what they get to cut down and the protection of some of the heritage and the character of that neighborhood.

LEGGETTThank you very much.

NNAMDIYou know, actually he's gonna take a weak position and not do anything. I'd love to hear a politician say that, just once.

SHERWOODWell, you know, some of his critics say...

CONWAYWell, I hope that's not right.

SHERWOODNo, go ahead, Mr. Leggett. That's a very important issue.

NNAMDIIndeed.

LEGGETTYeah, it is. In fact, we are looking very carefully with Pepco now, trying to work out an arrangement so that we can preserve those trees that you've just described in other areas and cut what is necessary in terms of a targeted area. But there are going to be some challenges as it relates to a need to be a little bit more aggressive in trimming the trees in Montgomery County, but doing so in a way that you've just said, to protect the agricultural preserve and our legacy of environmental concerns that we've expressed over so many years. So we're working with Pepco to try to make certain...

SHERWOODWhere does the authority lie? Does Pepco, under its public service commission licenses and all that, does it have the power to do what's necessary to protect its lines, or does it have some county or state restriction of what it can cut in the right of way?

LEGGETTThere's a little bit of both. But they have the basic power to cut what is within the areas to protect the lines. Now this is where you get the definition, as you've just heard from Diane, is it a tree that is somewhat distant from...

SHERWOODAcross the street.

LEGGETT...across the street that might fall or is it something that directly impacts the line. This is where you get the confusion and the challenges most times.

NNAMDIDiana, thank you for your call.

CONWAYKojo, can you hear me? Kojo, can you hear me?

SHERWOODYou know, I have to say I never hear any calls about Pepco cutting trees down during the winter.

LEGGETTNo. (laugh)

NNAMDIDiana, you were saying?

CONWAYCan you hear me?

NNAMDIYes.

CONWAYOK. Well, my question is Darnestown Civic Association apparently went out and did some research, and none of the power outages in the Berryville area were related to downed trees. So why Pepco is out there doing this? The answer to me is clear, this is their PR move. They're showing that they're "doing something." This has nothing to do with actually fixing anything.

NNAMDIOK. Diana, thank you very much for your call.

SHERWOODThat's pretty cool. I mean, that's a review that shows how trees didn't cause the power outages. That's pretty interesting.

NNAMDIIndeed. 800-433-8850 is the number to call if you'd like to speak with the Montgomery County Executive Isiah Leggett. He joins us in studio this hour. And speaking of Pepco, the county is in a fight of sorts over a panel of residents who produced a report that critiqued Pepco's performance. What's that fight about?

LEGGETTWell, that panel is a panel that I put together in order to look at the performance of Pepco and make recommendations to both myself as the governor as well as to the Public Service Commission. The panel had some pretty good recommendations, and I think that there are some questions related to the Pepco's -- and I think the Public Service Commission's -- desire to subpoena, if you will, the records and the documentation provided by the group.

LEGGETTWe think that it's helpful information, and we don't think that we need to spend additional money to go by, can hire lawyers and go through an exhausting process in terms of discovery. But I think the information is pretty self-evident. This information suggests very clearly that there needs to be some improvement, a huge array of recommendations, including the trimming that we've just talked about.

LEGGETTSo I'm very proud of the work that this commission has done. And we are now trying to get the Public Service Commission to, in fact, enact some of the recommendations that we've outlined.

NNAMDIWell, you can't say it was an anti-corporate commission because it was headed up by former Lockheed Martin CEO Norman Augustine.

LEGGETTNorm Augustine.

NNAMDIBut, apparently, Montgomery County and Pepco officials made an agreement after Pepco asked the county for details on where the workgroup got its information and how it drew its conclusions. And Montgomery County said, we're not gonna do that.

LEGGETTYeah. What they really want us to do is to go back to an exhausting array of discovery that would probably cost us tens and tens of thousand dollars. We've submitted the report. They can go back and verify the information we have from public records that are already available. We don't need to go back and hire additional lawyers and spend an exhausting amount of time. This, to me, is a diversion from looking at the report, analyzing these recommendations and moving forward.

NNAMDISo what's gonna happen next? What's the Maryland Public Service Commission likely to do?

LEGGETTWell, I hope that they will move forward on these recommendations. And if need be, we need to go back to the general assembly and strengthen some of the requirements that we want in place so that we can have the performance that we think that we need in Montgomery County.

NNAMDIBack to the telephones. Here is Pat in Silver Spring, Md. Pat, you're on the air. Go ahead, please.

PATMy question is, that whole Pepco power outage situation that -- my experience at my neighborhood was that they dug up the roads to put down FiOS cable, and they dug up the roads to re-sheathe the water pipes. While they've got the roads dug up, why can't they bury the power lines? And then you won't have to worry about the trees or whatever falling on them.

NNAMDIWell, in the past, when we have had Pepco officials and Pepco CEO Thomas Graham on this broadcast, they have said that, A, if you bury the lines underground, it costs more, and, B, if there is a fix required and the lines are underground, it's more difficult to get to the lines and all of this will probably end up in higher rates for you. Your choice, Pat.

PATI don't know that I really believe that either simply because in my particular neighborhood, the power lines are buried and we've never had a problem. But in the neighborhoods that feed into my neighborhood, they're out all the time.

NNAMDIWell, here's a voice more authoritative than mine.

LEGGETTWell, Pat, there will be some lines that will, in fact, be buried. It would be done in a more strategic manner because it is extremely costly to bury all of the lines. Where it is suitable, cost-efficient to do so, they've taken the position that they will, in fact, bury those lines. We will look at areas where we think that it is suitable, cost-effective to do in Montgomery County. And if what you said is true, I don't see why they would not have taken that advantage since the road was already unearthed to some degree already.

NNAMDIThe last time you joined us in January, you said that all the ganging up on Pepco was getting to be counterproductive, and that there were better ways to help the company perform better. Do you still feel that way?

LEGGETTYeah. I formed my own gang -- that is, the commission that we just talked about. (laugh) So we have our own gang that has come up with very clear definitions and outlines of what we need to do because we had a haphazard array of ideas and suggestions that were not there. I formed a commission, with Norman Augustine, an array of experts, if you will, that have come forward with a very powerful report. And I think this is the direction we should go into.

NNAMDISome gang.

SHERWOODThis is not in your jurisdiction, but I want to mention Metro for a moment. There's been a huge turnover in the Metro -- 16-member board of directors of Metro. It seems like almost 14 of them are new or at least a dozen of them are new. And there's a big issue about Dulles, getting Metro lines to Dulles. What would you say is the biggest Metro issue in your county? Is there one?

LEGGETTWell, certainly there's one, and that is the maintenance and operation of Metro. We see continued outage of the escalators. We see trains oftentimes that are packed, not having enough trains for our riders in the suburban areas. And we see, to some degree, some operational challenges that, I think, are not as convenient for many of the people in the suburban communities. Those are the challenges that we see.

LEGGETTBut above all of that, of course, is cost -- that is, how do we find a way to properly fund a system that provides services for intermix of jurisdictions across the entire area?

SHERWOODThere's a regional body that runs the Airport Authority, and it's trying to build that Dulles access road. Should there be some kind of regional revenue assessment for that type of transportation network that affects the entire region?

LEGGETTWell, it's something that I would like to evaluate, but I cannot commit to say that we actually need to do it without some further clarification -- i.e., what will be the cost, what will be the benefits with the various jurisdictions that would be impacted by it and how would it, in fact, be managed. It was gonna be a separate body that determines the revenues. It would be the current arrangement. So I think the beauty here would be in the details, and obviously it's something that needs to be studied.

SHERWOODSomebody who lives in Metro -- I mean, in Montgomery County wanted to take Metro to Dulles, assuming that that line were -- Silver Line, whatever -- was built. They would have to go all the way to downtown D.C. and then go all the way back up. There would be no direct route, so it's not much benefit for you there, isn't it?

LEGGETTWell, are you suggesting we have a second crossing, across the Potomac?

SHERWOODI'm not -- you know, as a reporter, I don't suggest anything. I'm just trying to figure it out. But it seems like…

NNAMDISpeaking of costs and benefits, just a few weeks ago, the county council voted against a measure to block a subsidy for Costco out at Wheaton. And then last Monday, they turned around and voted in favor of it to decide to allow a $4 million-grant to bring a Costco to Wheaton. What was the benefit of that...

LEGGETTNow they never voted to reject it. The concerns were, expressed by some, that we should, in fact, reject it. There was a big fight about it. Ultimately, the county, the council decided not to reject it, and maintain the budget recommendation that I had placed in. It is a $4 million over two-year period.

NNAMDIWhat's the benefit?

LEGGETTWell, the benefit, of course, would be jobs, because we need to revitalize a very difficult shopping center in the Wheaton area. We'd bring a Costco to that area and continue the revitalization efforts. Now...

SHERWOODWhat space would it take in the -- the space is already there...

LEGGETTYeah.

SHERWOOD...the former department store spaces or...

LEGGETTWe had a Macy's there that...

NNAMDIWestfield Mall.

LEGGETT...had been out some years ago, and we want to fill that space. And if you go to that shopping center now, you'll find probably 25 or 30 percent of that actually vacant or shops that come in and rotate quite frequent. We wanna shore that up because it's a sore and a drain for the entire region. And we think that we should do much better, and I think that Costco would help fill that void.

NNAMDIWe got -- running out of time, but we got an email from Allan Will (sp?) . "I'd do the right thing and save the unique Nick's Organic Farm, or will he let his bureaucrats turn it into soccer fields, which could be built at Cabin John Park?"

LEGGETTWell, we need more soccer fields and we need organic farm, and I think we could get both. We can place organic farms in a variety of places in Montgomery County, and I think we have some options that we would like to exercise to include that, so that then the plan that we are looking at now and I think that we can achieve both. Maybe not in the...

SHERWOODWell, soccer is so boring in the middle of the field. You could have an organic farm in the middle and just play on the ends near the goal.

NNAMDISoccer is only boring to people who don't understand.

SHERWOODIn the middle of the field, I said. I like soccer.

NNAMDITom Sherwood, our resident analyst. He's an NBC 4 reporter and a columnist for The Current Newspapers. Isiah Leggett is the county executive of Montgomery County, Md. He is a Democrat seeking consensus, and nobody there is under investigation. Isiah Leggett, thank you for joining us.

LEGGETTThank you for having me.

NNAMDIThank you all for listening. I'm Kojo Nnamdi.